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LOSING OUR DELUSIONS: Not Much Left (Despondent Liberal on state of Liberalism)
New Republic ^ | 2/17/05 | Martin Peretz

Posted on 02/17/2005 6:31:56 PM PST by pissant

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To: All

Great writing from an honest liberal.


61 posted on 02/17/2005 10:11:09 PM PST by Luke21
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To: pissant

Yeah, but still clueless.


62 posted on 02/17/2005 10:19:17 PM PST by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: filbert
"I think that was really my point. As far as I know, there isn't a real Leftist alternative to FR. About the only site I know about that has halfway reasonable leftie discussions is Strauss & Howe's fourthturning.com. Even that is only palatable in small doses."

I have read much of the work on the Fourth Turning site and think as a social theory it is very interesting. I have not gotten into the discussion boards though. They seemed to be too into the details of the theory for me to get into easily. I am surprised to hear that the discussions are leftist because I thought that Strauss and Howe were somewhat conservative or at least not leftist.

Which of the discussion threads on Fourth Turning would you recommend?

Agreed about there being no alternative to FR on the left. The left fails to realize that FR cannot be duplicated just by copying the format any more that Air America can imitate Rush, Laura or Hugh. FR is an out-picturing of a greater revolution that is going on in American politics and society. Thanks to JimRob, FR came into being as a result of that revolution. That revolution is not happening on the left so they can't grow things like FR or conservative talk radio.

Mr Sol
63 posted on 02/17/2005 10:31:13 PM PST by Solar Wind
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To: pissant

Yikes! Way to go Marty! You've come a long way from firing Michael Kelly for criticizing Al Gore. Or was it Andrew Sullivan? Anyway...nice progress and well said.


64 posted on 02/17/2005 10:40:04 PM PST by Deb (Beat him, strip him and bring him to my tent!)
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To: pissant
For months, liberals have been peddling one disaster scenario after another… hoping now against hope that their gloomy visions will come true.

True. Everyone who is attached to a gloomy vision from the 60's is a walking disaster. But the liberals today reject the profound liberalism of John Locke and Thomas Jefferson and are people who are attached to a gloomy vision from the 60's. Therefore, liberals today are a walking disaster. As Martin Perez writes,

"The liberals are themselves uninspired by a vision of the good society."
65 posted on 02/17/2005 10:41:19 PM PST by Falconspeed (Keep your fears to yourself, but share your courage with others. R.L.Stevenson)
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To: Solar Wind

re: the Fourth Turning site . . . I'm not sure I can recommend any threads. I go over there every now and again (mainly since 9/11). In fact, for a while they had a very interesting discussion about whether or not 9/11 was the trigger for their "Crisis" phase in their four-stroke history theory. Most of those threads are infested by liberals of the Bush-Oil-Conspiracy ilk, if I recall correctly. But there was at least some degree of fairly rational discussion. I'd comment further but Comcast (my broadband provider) doesn't seem to want to resolve the domain name for the site right now.

I think Strauss and Howe might possibly have some conservative leanings, but they don't appear to participate very much over there any more.


66 posted on 02/18/2005 1:28:21 AM PST by filbert
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To: pissant

Sounds like this liberal has a fairly firm grasp of reality, and what that reality is doing to his political party.


67 posted on 02/18/2005 7:13:24 AM PST by Grampa Dave (The MSM has been a WMD, Weapon of Mass Disinformation for the Rats for at least 4 decades.)
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To: pissant
This writer is someone with whom one could have a civil conversation, freely discuss ideas, agreements, and disagreements, and go away respecting if not ageeing with his points of view.

It wasn't so long ago (the 80's in my case) when I would have very friendly and spirited give and take with liberal democrat friends. That is now barely possible and I honestly believe that it wasn't me who's changed. People like this writer (Christopher Hitchens also comes to mind) on the left have indeed become a very rare species.

68 posted on 02/18/2005 7:58:10 AM PST by katana
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To: pissant
Who is a truly influential liberal mind in our culture? Whose ideas challenge and whose ideals inspire?

Lawrence Summers. Unfortunately his idea that challenged was a conservative idea.

These are not axiomatic questions for them, as can be seen by their determined and contravening success last week in empowering not the states against Washington but Washington against the states in the area of tort law.

No, it is evidence that we want things handled where they should be handled. If a case has participants from several states it is no longer a matter to be decided by the one state with the most liberal judges but by the federal government

Still, liberals know that the right's ideologically framed--but class-motivated--retreat of the government from the economy must be resisted.

Here is the peak of his error. Liberals see classes. Conservatives only see people.

69 posted on 02/18/2005 7:59:10 AM PST by John O (God Save America (Please))
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To: pissant
People who are voluntarily obliged to each other across classes and races, professions and ethnicities, tend to trust each other, like a patient his doctor and a student her teacher. It is not easy to limn out such a vision practically. But we have it in our bones.

An interesting read, but the author is still being intellectually dishonest if he believes this. Liberal programs of big-government, welfare and wealth distribution are not VOLUNTARY, they are enforced by law, and as such, involve implied violence upon a section of the population - the productive section whose wealth is confiscated to pay for the program.

A second point: elsewhere, the author points out that some capitlist entities, such as Enron, have committed fraud, and then reasons from the single to the general - capitalism cannot be trusted etc so government bureaucrats should be in control. While that is a logical fallacy in itself (reasoning from the single to the general), it also raises the question, ignored by the author, "why should we trust government anymore than corporations?" Obviously, governments are capable of defrauding the population in many ways (inflation, currency devaluation, abuse of eminent domain rights, changes in the covenant between current taxation and future "entitlements", confiscation of pension rights etc).

That the author ignored these issues tells me that this is actually an example of what he decries - more shallow thinking, dressed up with a good helping of adjectives.

The great unspoken truth, which the author cannot bring himself to admit, is that liberalism/socialism is bunk.

70 posted on 02/18/2005 9:01:39 AM PST by alnitak ("That kid's about as sharp as a pound of wet liver" - Foghorn Leghorn)
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To: pissant
Thanks for posting.

Rush just said he's going to read excerpts from this today.

71 posted on 02/18/2005 9:09:17 AM PST by shhrubbery!
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To: pissant

El Bumpo


72 posted on 02/18/2005 10:54:34 AM PST by Run Silent Run Deep
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To: blanknoone
There is also Lenin. Stalin. Trotsky. Mao.

In the more modern mold, there's Chomsky.

73 posted on 02/18/2005 10:56:42 AM PST by kevkrom (If people are free to do as they wish, they are almost certain not to do as Utopian planners wish)
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To: JennysCool
The vast majority of the public doesn't realize that the labels "liberal" and "conservative" don't mean what they did 30 years ago.

Good point. As another twisting of language... many of President Bush's major proposals are both progressive and liberal in the true senses of the words, not in their current meanings. It are the Democrats who have become conservative and reactionary.

74 posted on 02/18/2005 10:59:05 AM PST by kevkrom (If people are free to do as they wish, they are almost certain not to do as Utopian planners wish)
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To: pissant
Losing their delusions?!

Without delusions liberals would have no ideology whatsoever.

75 posted on 02/18/2005 11:03:54 AM PST by CaptRon (Pedecaris alive or Raisuli dead)
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To: pissant
Scary to see a liberal "getting it". The following comment's true, and the writer is brave to say it:

For months, liberals have been peddling one disaster scenario after another, one contradictory fact somehow reinforcing another, hoping now against hope that their gloomy visions will come true.

I happen to believe that they won't. This will not curb the liberal complaint. That complaint is not a matter of circumstance. It is a permanent affliction of the liberal mind. It is not a symptom; it is a condition. And it is a condition related to the desperate hopes liberals have vested in the United Nations. That is their lodestone. But the lodestone does not perform. It is not a magnet for the good. It performs the magic of the wicked. It is corrupt, it is pompous, it is shackled to tyrants and cynics. It does not recognize a genocide when the genocide is seen and understood by all. Liberalism now needs to be liberated from many of its own illusions and delusions. Let's hope we still have the strength.

76 posted on 02/18/2005 11:23:17 AM PST by GOPJ (Liberals haven't had a new idea in 40 years.)
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To: kevkrom

Chomsky is no more modern. He is just as old dusty and broken...he just never got the chance to seize power.


77 posted on 02/18/2005 11:27:50 AM PST by blanknoone (Steyn: "The Dems are all exit and no strategy")
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To: JennysCool
Here and there, of course, a university personage appears to assert a small didactic point and proves it with a vast and intricate academic apparatus.

Ward Churchill?

Nope, Churchill's not smart enough to do the "intricate academic apparatus" thing -- Churchill's a Move-On type -- he does his deed with the grace of a thug and the wit of a goon's sledge hammer.

78 posted on 02/18/2005 11:34:07 AM PST by GOPJ (Liberals haven't had a new idea in 40 years.)
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To: JasonC
Well said, JasonC:

The new left never had ideas on its side. It had sophistry and rhetoric and attitude. All of it borrowed from failed European radicalism of an earlier generation. Orwell, Koestler, and Arendt despised that radicalism, looked on it as a disease, a flight from reality. The new left was never about anything else. The cultural heights lost, they decided to fight on in the sewers.

79 posted on 02/18/2005 11:39:57 AM PST by GOPJ (Liberals haven't had a new idea in 40 years.)
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To: JasonC
Without ideas, without a clue -- the Democrats are clueless what has happened to their world.

IMHO it is the old media monopoly that has failed them. In days gone by the Democrats didn't have to think, they could count on the old media to fill in their ideas, enshrine those psuedo-ideas in untouchable glass cases and proceed to tell the folks that it was unimpeachable truth. Today with the advent of the citizen journalists, forums, blogs and the means to get their message out, the old media can no longer do the job -- the glass case has been destroyed. The Democrats are left with no cover for the fact they have no ideas -- and worse no solutions.

One could make the case that the Democrats lost their ability to think when the Vietnam war old media scam 'America lost' was successfully pulled off. The good news is they bought it.
80 posted on 02/18/2005 11:53:32 AM PST by Tarpon (Hate is not a plan for America)
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