Posted on 03/03/2005 3:22:46 PM PST by RKBA Democrat
As the gaggle of gun enthusiasts with their assorted handguns sitting openly on their hips dined on hamburgers and chicken tenders at the Fuddruckers restaurant in Annandale, Victor Castellon's eyes grew wide with concern.
"I've got to be careful with these guys because they've got guns," he said, sitting at a nearby table with his girlfriend. "It's like the old West." Castellon was observing members of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, an organization that believes gun owners have the right to carry their guns anywhere — including restaurants like Fuddruckers that serve alcohol.
Under Virginia law, carrying a concealed firearm in a bar or restaurant where alcohol is served is illegal, even if the gun owner has a permit to carry a concealed weapon. But anyone may "open carry" handguns in those establishments, just so long as the gun is visible. Restaurants and bars may post signs stating firearms are prohibited, but few establishments have done so. Two weeks ago, a House of Delegates committee killed a bill that would have prohibited restaurants that offer mixed drinks from serving people who are lawfully carrying firearms. The bill, SB 759, had been unanimously approved by the Senate in late January. "My constituents don't want to walk into a restaurant that serves alcohol and see people carrying guns," said Sen. Janet Howell (D-32), the bill's sponsor. "I've had dozens of e-mails from people who are both angry and frightened about open carrying."
THE GUN-CARRYING members of VCDL resent the implication that they and other Virginia gun owners are not responsible enough to carry their weapons in bars and restaurants.
"I think it's kind of a bizarre thing," said Jim Snyder, VDCL's vice president who lives in eastern Fairfax County. "Why shouldn't a person carrying a gun be able to enjoy a meal? They need to target the bad guys. That law targets the good guys."
VCDL members and other Fairfax County residents who routinely open carry say they are law-abiding citizens merely exercising their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. "We carry guns for self defense," said Philip Van Cleave, the group's president and a software designer. "They're for life and death situations." VCDL has roughly 2,000 members and represents Virginia's 111,000 concealed-carry permit holders, 16,000 of whom reside in Northern Virginia.
LAST JULY, 13 members of Virginia Citizens Defense League openly carried their handguns at Champps Americana Restaurant in Reston. The manager called in Fairfax County police officers, who incorrectly believed it was illegal to carry firearms in an ABC-licensed establishment.
That incident drew national attention to the gun-carrying phenomena in Northern Virginia that continues on an almost weekly basis. Three weeks ago Fairfax County police were called to the Red Robin Restaurant in Chantilly after a group of gun owners entered with their guns visible on their hips. They had just finished target practice at a nearby shooting range. But usually other restaurant patrons either do not notice or simply assume they are undercover law enforcement officers, they said.
"It's still a problem for us sometimes, but most people don't even seem to care," said Rudolph DiGiacinto, a Fairfax gun enthusiast and legal researcher who was present at the Champps and Red Robin incidents. "We're open carrying legally." When they carry their firearms openly at restaurants, they say they are careful to never drink alcoholic beverages. "We don't want to make ourselves targets for law enforcement," said Mike Stollenwerk, a Fairfax County resident who carried a visible 9-mm Beretta at Fuddruckers the other night. Virginia Citizens Defense League's top legislative goal is to allow concealed-carry permit holders to bring their hidden guns into bars and restaurants.
HOWELL'S BILL was defeated by the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. Del. Chap Petersen (D-37), one of only two Northern Virginia lawmakers on the committee, said Howell's bill and the proposed lifting of the concealed-weapon restaurant ban both boil down to a balance between the restaurant owner's right to a safe establishment and the gun owners' right to bear arms.
"There needs to be some meeting of the minds between the two groups," he said. "I do believe that restaurant owners should know who on their property has firearms." Petersen, who voted against killing Howell's bill, said it and other gun control measures resulted in little change during this year's General Assembly session. But Dave Yates, a Virginia Citizens Defense League member and a Mount Vernon computer programmer disagreed. He said the defeat of stiffer gun control measures marked a victory for handgun owners. "After everything that got thrown at us, after all the dust had settled, we lost no ground," said Yates, as he walked out of Chinese food restaurant in Chantilly on Friday night, openly carrying one of his favorite semi-automatic pistols.
This little snippet took about 5 mouse clicks to locate:
http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/cld/Florida_reciprocity_agreement.cfm
The State of Florida will recognize valid Pennsylvania permits to carry concealed firearms by valid Pennsylvania permit holders while said permit holders are present in the State of Florida.
The Commonwealth of Pennsylvania will recognize valid Florida licenses to carry concealed firearms by valid Florida permit holders while said permit holders are present in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
This Reciprocity Agreement applies only to the carrying of firearms as defined and authorized by the applicable statutes of Pennsylvania by valid license/permit holders from the respective states and not to any other types of weapons.
froggie, I like your approach and your reply; it was anything BUT in-your-face. And I, while I am put off by open-carry in everyday social situations, I am a big fan of conceal/carry. The former is fraught with a strut-your-stuff mentality, and the moods that can engender; while the latter has none of that.
I'm serious, though: if I and my family are sitting down to a nice meal and a bunch of civilians strut in wearing pistols, I get us up, walk out and tell the manager "those guys make me nervous".
All they need to do is post this sign
We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service to Anyone
And they are in the clear.
And who has been forcing her constituents to enter restaurants against their will?
An armed society...
I would applaud your doing so and support your decision as your feeling uncomfortable in that situation would not be conducible to a nice meal, etc. However, the mere carrying of the weapon would not bother me, unless their demeanor was inappropriate. If some citizens in Kileen Texas has openly carried, perhaps some of the carnage could have been prevented. Passing laws to restrict the 2nd amendment rights of the citizenry does nothing to prevent criminals from breaking those laws -- HELLO -- they are criminals they don't mind breaking laws !!
By the way, I have a concealed carry permit but rarely actually carry the weapon. I got the permit so I could have the option to exercise the right granted by the founders before those who would limit these rights passed barriers to effectively remove those rights.
I conceal/carry, too, w/ permit. I rarely do it around town (maybe a mistake), except when hiking -- I like to hike up into the mountains behind town, and there are bears and mountain lions.
I carry a .40 S&W Sig P229 in shoulder and a BondArms .45/.410 snake gun in a pocket holster. I also have a .308 sniper rifle, as I like to shoot, strait, over long distances. It's an incredible feeling. It's just a hobby, but a potentially useful one.
Thanks for the conversation, BTW. You seem like a first-class FReeper.
Really? It sounds like you have ZERO firearms training. If someone is trying to kill me, the last thing *my* firearm will be is "useless". But maybe that's only because I take it seriously and have spent hundreds of dollars on training.
frightening to some people,
That's *their* problem, not mine.
a little bit too "in-your-face" for me
If someone is uncomfortable with another American carrying openly, that is *their* problem, not mine. I'm not going to surrender a fighting tool simply based on other people's perceptions.
Anyway, sometimes "in your face" is the only way to get things done. (Sam Adams, Rosa Parks, etc....)
a statement that goes something like: "look at me--chip on shoulder, gun on hip.."
Like I said earlier, if you truly believe that, then you need to get some serious firearms training. Or sell your guns to someone that will appreciate them.
I just don't take them in among polite company.
Why? Do you think a magic force-field will protect you from violent predators simply because you and your friends "wish" them away?
Or are you so selfish and arrogant that you expect a police officer that probably makes half what you do to risk *his* life protecting you because you were too lazy to take reasonable steps to protect yourself?
Like a friend of mine says: a sheep with a gun is still a sheep.
So when some cops walk in, you get up and leave?
(They are civilians too)
"I would like to be carrying openly."
You might want to read section 21-1272 regarding unlawful carry. Your guess is as good as mine as to what "the proper use of guns and knives for hunting, fishing, educational or recreational purposes" means. I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV.
If I see a couple guys carrying and in a restaurant, I'm as likely to think they're LEOs as anything else. Especially in Chantilly with its several ranges.
Why someone would call the police on guys who are potentially also police, also is a mystery. VDCL seems to draw a lot of attention to itself.
"Can't get a straight answer from the state police re: open carry in PA. Any Freepers are welcome to pass on info."
You'll never get a straight answer. The gun websites have more info. Check out packing.org. They have a good PA webpage.
"Why someone would call the police on guys who are potentially also police, also is a mystery. VDCL seems to draw a lot of attention to itself."
VCDL does get attention. More from their legislative activism than anything. They work hard to get pro-gun legislation passed, and they win.
The open carry thing is a tempest in a teapot. This article implies that open carry is some brand new thing in Virginia. Open carry has been legal here since 1607.
Actually, places of public accomodation can pretty much toss anyone for any reason, EXCEPT discrimination on grounds of race, sex or national origin, etc. Got a BBQ joint here that prides itself on not allowing neckties, perfectly legal. That one did go to court several years ago and was promptly bounced as frivolous, allowing recovery of legal costs.
Wow! Really? Does it say Sniper Rifle right on it??
I dunno, Mulder. You seem like a nice chap; but your style differs greatly from mine.
I am a gun person, with plenty of training, living in the West where there is plenty of wide open space and lots of reason to pack, such as going where there are predatory animals, or out prospecting and the like. So I don't think I'll be selling my guns any time soon, despite your advice.
I like it when cops come into restaurants. I know them and trust them and they know me. They are not there with their shootin' irons to make a statement or to prove how tough and aggressive they are. It's those wannabes with their beards and cowboy hats, or beards and leather jackets, or beards and sleeveless vests (and guns or big knives strapped on) that bug me.
Anyway, like I said, here we are, a couple of FReepers, good Americans, and it's too bad we make each other uncomfortable. I seem to have hit a hot button with you by my post because you sure unloaded on me, without even knowing me. I am not a confrontational person, and that has stood me in fine stead lo these many years. And I am sure that your style works for you.
Sorry if I offended you, but please understand: I was not directing my musings at you. It was more like I was just trying to throw out a couple of caveats about gun behavior in public in the 21st century.
I assure you that we are pretty much on the same side, and no insults are necessary.
LoL, I think this is the first time EVER we have agreed 100%!
::breaks out the scotch::
cheers!
(I knew we were on the same forum for SOME reason.)
;)
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