Posted on 03/03/2005 3:22:46 PM PST by RKBA Democrat
As the gaggle of gun enthusiasts with their assorted handguns sitting openly on their hips dined on hamburgers and chicken tenders at the Fuddruckers restaurant in Annandale, Victor Castellon's eyes grew wide with concern.
"I've got to be careful with these guys because they've got guns," he said, sitting at a nearby table with his girlfriend. "It's like the old West." Castellon was observing members of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, an organization that believes gun owners have the right to carry their guns anywhere — including restaurants like Fuddruckers that serve alcohol.
Under Virginia law, carrying a concealed firearm in a bar or restaurant where alcohol is served is illegal, even if the gun owner has a permit to carry a concealed weapon. But anyone may "open carry" handguns in those establishments, just so long as the gun is visible. Restaurants and bars may post signs stating firearms are prohibited, but few establishments have done so. Two weeks ago, a House of Delegates committee killed a bill that would have prohibited restaurants that offer mixed drinks from serving people who are lawfully carrying firearms. The bill, SB 759, had been unanimously approved by the Senate in late January. "My constituents don't want to walk into a restaurant that serves alcohol and see people carrying guns," said Sen. Janet Howell (D-32), the bill's sponsor. "I've had dozens of e-mails from people who are both angry and frightened about open carrying."
THE GUN-CARRYING members of VCDL resent the implication that they and other Virginia gun owners are not responsible enough to carry their weapons in bars and restaurants.
"I think it's kind of a bizarre thing," said Jim Snyder, VDCL's vice president who lives in eastern Fairfax County. "Why shouldn't a person carrying a gun be able to enjoy a meal? They need to target the bad guys. That law targets the good guys."
VCDL members and other Fairfax County residents who routinely open carry say they are law-abiding citizens merely exercising their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms. "We carry guns for self defense," said Philip Van Cleave, the group's president and a software designer. "They're for life and death situations." VCDL has roughly 2,000 members and represents Virginia's 111,000 concealed-carry permit holders, 16,000 of whom reside in Northern Virginia.
LAST JULY, 13 members of Virginia Citizens Defense League openly carried their handguns at Champps Americana Restaurant in Reston. The manager called in Fairfax County police officers, who incorrectly believed it was illegal to carry firearms in an ABC-licensed establishment.
That incident drew national attention to the gun-carrying phenomena in Northern Virginia that continues on an almost weekly basis. Three weeks ago Fairfax County police were called to the Red Robin Restaurant in Chantilly after a group of gun owners entered with their guns visible on their hips. They had just finished target practice at a nearby shooting range. But usually other restaurant patrons either do not notice or simply assume they are undercover law enforcement officers, they said.
"It's still a problem for us sometimes, but most people don't even seem to care," said Rudolph DiGiacinto, a Fairfax gun enthusiast and legal researcher who was present at the Champps and Red Robin incidents. "We're open carrying legally." When they carry their firearms openly at restaurants, they say they are careful to never drink alcoholic beverages. "We don't want to make ourselves targets for law enforcement," said Mike Stollenwerk, a Fairfax County resident who carried a visible 9-mm Beretta at Fuddruckers the other night. Virginia Citizens Defense League's top legislative goal is to allow concealed-carry permit holders to bring their hidden guns into bars and restaurants.
HOWELL'S BILL was defeated by the House Committee on Militia, Police and Public Safety. Del. Chap Petersen (D-37), one of only two Northern Virginia lawmakers on the committee, said Howell's bill and the proposed lifting of the concealed-weapon restaurant ban both boil down to a balance between the restaurant owner's right to a safe establishment and the gun owners' right to bear arms.
"There needs to be some meeting of the minds between the two groups," he said. "I do believe that restaurant owners should know who on their property has firearms." Petersen, who voted against killing Howell's bill, said it and other gun control measures resulted in little change during this year's General Assembly session. But Dave Yates, a Virginia Citizens Defense League member and a Mount Vernon computer programmer disagreed. He said the defeat of stiffer gun control measures marked a victory for handgun owners. "After everything that got thrown at us, after all the dust had settled, we lost no ground," said Yates, as he walked out of Chinese food restaurant in Chantilly on Friday night, openly carrying one of his favorite semi-automatic pistols.
"gun owners have the right to carry their guns anywhere — including restaurants like Fuddruckers that serve alcohol."
you can do this in MN, including in a bar. (but I wouldn't suggest it. different cultural norms. and it's annoying explaining it to the police every 10 minutes)
You bring an interesting point, at least in today's society.
In my state, if you are a business open to the public, then concealed permit carriers are within the law to carry concealed on that property where the general public is allowed. Can a store owner throw you out and give you a trespass warning because he doesn't like your looks? Probably, unless you're an obvious "protected minority" class...
So... a truly private property owner in my state has such a right to forbid anything he pleases (no... no tattoos allowed), but a property owner who declares his property open to the general public does not, at least in terms of the concealed carry laws. Interesting situation, eh?
Address or web site needed, thanks.
yeah, that is kinda screwy.
one way to end-run that bit of idiocy is to charge an entry fee to the premesis (sort of a "membership fee), which makes the place a private "club"
In his haste to paint the VCDL as some sort of lunatic fringe group, the author conveniently fails to mention that this also the official position of the government of the Commonwealth of Virginia.
Restaurants and bars may post signs stating firearms are prohibited, but few establishments have done so.
And apparently also the position of the great majority of restaurant and bar owners (who are probably taking their cue from the majority of citizens, upon whom they rely for income).
I'll look into that, I don't know if even that would pass muster, if membership is open to the general public. Dunno. My church forbids carrying, and is within the law, because there is a provision for churches banning firearms if posted. OTOH, our teachers can carry concealed in the public schools.
BTW, you can carry concealed into a bar, but the threshold for possesion of a firearm while intoxicated is the same as for driving. You get caught with a beer in your hand, or have a BAC above that stated in the DUI statute (.08) while carring concealed is an offense. You'll lose your permit and have a gun related misdemeanor on yer record.
And what's worse, the local rednecks would probably tie you to a fence post and brand and flog yer useless butt for defaming gun owners for being stupid. (Son, we've found you guilty of public stupidity...)
Can't get a straight answer from the state police re: open carry in PA. Any Freepers are welcome to pass on info.
According to those same state police PA law does not restrict concealed carry with permit in establishments serving alcohol.
Here are the two sites to see if you want an out-of-state permit from Virginia. Read both before applying.
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/forms.htm See SP-248
http://www.vsp.state.va.us/cjis_nrcwp.htm
I choose not to pack heat into otherwise friendly, family establishments, because I think it's
1) useless, under the circumstances,
2) frightening to some people,
3) a little bit too "in-your-face" for me,
4) a statement that goes something like: "look at me--chip on shoulder, gun on hip.."
But that's probably just me, as I read other comments on this thread. Weird, too; because I'm as big a gunnie as anybody on here. I just don't take them in among polite company.
You are so right. Much law is passed with the intent of controlling citizens and to serve government convenience.
Here in the People's Republic of Connecticut, the Concealed part is enforced militantly! I heard of people getting their liscenses revoked for life for somethings simple as for reaching for the top shelf at a supermarket and allowing their shirt move upward revealing thier holster (and then some anti-gun soccermom type calls the cops)
All he has to do is mind his business and he hasn't got a problem. I guess that is too much to ask of the liberal-left.
Quite a few shootings happen in friendly, family establishments. Luby's Diner for one. The McDonalds massacre in CA. I could give you,off the top of my head, a list of about 20, in recent yearsm in Pittsburgh, PA.
Quite a few shootings happen in friendly, family establishments. Luby's Diner for one. The McDonalds massacre in CA. I could give you,off the top of my head, a list of about 20, in recent yearsm in Pittsburgh, PA.
I choose not to pack heat into otherwise friendly, family establishments, because I think it's
1) useless, under the circumstances,
Luby's Restaurant in Killeen, Texas is a nice safe family oriented establishment. See http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=1445
Good idea. That's the problem, too few LEO know the law. Even if you're right, it could cause major hassle.
Here is a great web site for information regarding weapon carrying - or as I think of it, exercising your second amendment right !! www.packing.org
By the way, in Texas you have to have a concealed, and just like another poster commented, it HAS to be concealed. Any unconcealed carrying is illegal. In regards to carrying in establishments that serve alcohol, it is legal only if the establishment does not derive the majority of their income from alcohol sales. Also, other establishments can prohibit carrying concealed on their premesis by posting a state approved sign, that is in compliance with the state law. It amazes me that businesses would want to prohibit law-abiding citizens from carrying weapons - these citizens have had background checks and passes a state course, been fingerprinted etc.
So to me, these signs tell the criminal -- come on down - the coast is clear !! You can carry at an airport -- as long as you don't try to go through security. You can carry on school grounds such as parking lots, but not in the buildings, nor at race tracks, or sporting events. I believe government buildings and courthouses are off limits!! As the instructor kept telling us regarding carrying where you aren't supposed to: " It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" -- and he was a state legislator!! Isn't it something that we have to have all these laws to allow us to exercise a right granted by the constitution??
Check your legal status at http://www.packing.org.
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