Posted on 07/15/2005 5:50:24 PM PDT by nuconvert
Some of Moslems and non-Moslems think it's true, and some don't. Some Christians and non-Christians would say this describes the Christian MO also, and (again) some don't. Turning to observable fact and setting doctrine and interpretations aside, (1) most adherents say this idea is not a core belief, even though (2) this is how it worked a lot with both faiths.
"As a Bible literalist...."
So you believe in an eye for an eye?
Seventy years ago the first batch of fascists came from Rome, painted crosses on their weapons and prayers on their clothes, and tried to take over the world. The rest of the world's Christians wiped them out. Now we got a new bunch of fascist-types from Mecca, complete with Moslem trappings, also trying to take over. At issue is whether the Christians should have to be the ones to clean up this Moslem-fascist mess or why can't the Moslems keep their own people in line like the Christians did.
Maybe we'd be in a better position to criticize the way the Moslems handle their idiots, if we at the Freerepublic were able to keep a tighter leash on the nuke-Mecca gang.
My previous request to you was: "If you have any links that refutes the fact that the koran states that infidels (me again) should be killed - please reference them. The words in the koran seem pretty clear - and thus my problem isn't with the 'so-called' fringe, it is with their foundational cornerstone (the koran)".
Your reply:
"As a Bible literalist..." -- So you believe in an eye for an eye?
So you can't answer my question but you choose to change the subject.
I've asked the question of islamists before and I never get an answer. Its always, 'Joshua did mean things to the Canaanites'; 'David was cruel'; etc, etc.
I encourage you to read the Bible as one book (or just read the Gospel of John if you want a shortcut).
Regarding the verse you quoted ('an eye for an eye') - do you have a problem with justice? We aren't to be vigilantes (Read Romans 13) - but there is nothing wrong with our leaders meting out justice - as well they should (As God told Noah: "Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man").
These references are to the Law, and 'justice' -- but as Christians we have grace -- and in reference to your verse question:
Matthew 5:38-39 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Note that Jesus was talking to us as individuals (as we know that Judgment and Vengeance belongs to God), not to Government leaders (i.e., there is no free invitation in this verse to open the prison gates). As Christians we are to love our enemies (not kill them). And the best love I can offer is to point you (and other islamists) to the Bible and Jesus. And be it "intolerant" or not, I will also point out what the koran says and that those who've built their belief system on such a book have built it upon satan.
Dear El Cid -
I have read the Bible. I am not muslim.
I stopped you at your ""As a Bible literalist..." sentence and didn't go any further, because as a literalist, that would mean that you literally believed in "an eye for eye", not just justice.
I assume you don't actually sacrifice lambs? How about handling snakes? (some believers are into that)
So it seems you pick and choose which parts of the Bible you take literally. And that's fine and that's what most people do.
That's what most people do regarding the Koran, also.
...the muslim's foundational book - the Koran - is quite explicit in its instruction that the good muslim should either convert the infidel (that would be me) or if they won't convert - then kill them...
Some of Moslems and non-Moslems think it's true, and some don't.
I agree that the vast majority of Moslems are peaceful and don't abide by these instructions. Nonetheless, it is in their 'holy book' ... which they worship -- and my point remains the same: it is only by God's restraining hand that most Moslems don't buy into these 'surahs'. By the way - I didn't understand your reference to 'non-Moslems' (I know none of them believe the koran).
Some Christians and non-Christians would say this describes the Christian MO also, and (again) some don't.
Well, I'll partially agree with you on this one. Non-christians will say anything about Christians. Have you read your Bible lately? I recommend the Gospel of John as a starter -- but just reading one Proverb a day is also a good regimen... But back to your comment - you are woefully mistaken if you think there is any open command from God to 'kill unbelievers'. In fact, Jesus says just the opposite when His Apostles want Him to call down fire upon a town that didn't want to receive Him:
Luke 9:52-56 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
Turning to observable fact and setting doctrine and interpretations aside, (1) most adherents say this idea is not a core belief, even though (2) this is how it worked a lot with both faiths.
Again - you continue to lump "both" together. There is NO verse in the Bible that justifies killing the unbeliever just for their unbelief. We are to warn them - and to encourage them to believe on the Lord Jesus - but Judgment belongs to God.
Read your Bible -- it will do you good.
Ah. US Navy. That explains why we find a stong element of common sense in what he says.
I apologize for labeling you (incorrectly) - I made an assumption you were a muslim.
As I wrote on the previous post (up a couple from this one) - the 'eye for an eye' justice is that meted out by leaders/government and not by vigilantes. And yes, our leaders/government should mete out justice.
Do I sacrifice lambs? Please read your Bible again. You will realize that sacrifices ended at the Cross:
Hebrews 10:10-13 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
As Jesus said at Calvary: 'It Is Finished!'.
No more sacrifices - HE did it all... Just come and believe.
Regarding the handling of snakes (the famous 16th Chapter of Mark) -- those references (drinking of poisons, casting of devils, handling of snakes, laying hands on and healing the sick, speaking of tongues) were literally accomplished by the Apostles - as these were signs of their charge (read the reference at the end of Acts how Paul gets bitten by a poisonous snake - yet without any effect) -- 'many infallible proofs' that certified that they were messengers of God.
I encourage you to read the Bible as it was intended - to be believed and as the literal Word of God - not as another 'interesting' mythological book to peruse for a chuckle or two.
I understand that you probably have friends and loved ones who are muslims. I'd just gently point them towards the Truth -- and if at this point in your life you don't have a personal relationship with the Truth - or you don't believe in Him -- I hope through prayer and reading of the Bible you may find Him... I'm sure I wasn't all that different from you that long ago (and probably worse as I fell into the trap of creating God in my own image -- deciding what I felt was right and what I thought was just).
Listen to God's Word and believe on Him.
You sound upset El, maybe another time.
"However, why do I sense that this guy is a lone voice in the wilderness?"
I don't share that opinion. I don't think he really believes what he is saying. I think the guy is doing his "job" as a muslim to placate the infidels and buy the muslims more time to slither further into all nonmuslim societies.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.