Biblical Scroll Found in Desert

Guardian (U.K.) ^ | Saturday July 16, 2005

[BibChr]

The sky is blue, water is wet, doubtless we agree on many things. Let's try another.

How many TRUE gods are there?

Dan

[DelphiUser]

Please define "TRUE Gods" from the bible.

This is starting to get funny :-)

[carumba]

LDS articles of faith:
1. We beleive in God the Eternal Father and in his Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost.

[Free Baptist]

Of course...we see miracles and answers to prayer every day of our life and Christian ministry. But many claiming to be "apostles" want the prestige and authority of that office without being anything near what you read in the true and factual accounts in the Acts of the Apostles. That Book is called the Acts of the Apostles, and it very clearly illustrates, therefore, between the Biblical Apostles and those who are trying to claim the title today.

We have served where no doctors are available. We have seen miracles of healing and physical restoration that can only be described as God's working in response to the prayers of His children and servants. We could, after 27 years in the ministry, much of it in very remote or backward settings, we could write several books on it. But that is what many of the modern "apostles" want to do...write a book on it...for dollars, and more dollars, and more dollars, and more dollars.... But where we have seen the genuine thing...the GENUINE, NO HUMAN ANSWER thing, there were no people around us claiming to be apostles or healers. And if we ever do write about it, you'll never see any of our books in the chain book stores.

[carumba]

I am sure then that you can appreciate that today's Apostles do not trumpet the miracles and healing and other encounters with the divine the way a hypocrite or heathen would.

[DelphiUser]

Very well said, and I commend you for your service. I was working on an answer before I saw yours, let me add, if I may, that "it is a Wicked a nd perverse generation that seeketh after a sign, and none shall be given unto it except the sign of Jonas" (As best my poor memory can recall with out looking it up.
I too have witnessed much that I will not share on this forum.

[ppaul]

ping.

[BibChr]

You seem to be more familiar with post-modernism from the inside than from the outside. If you want to get up to speed on it, try Google; or Total Truth by Nancy Pearcey might be helpful to you.

Ad hominems are standard Mormon dodges; you'll pardon me for not being diverted.

The Book of Mormon may call itself anything it likes. I can call myself a young man with a head full of hair; won't make me one.

Mormonism and the Bible cannot be true at the same time. There cannot be only one true God, and many true Gods, at the same time — just to pick one unbridgeable chasm between the religions.

Again, to be a Christian is to believe in absolutes, because Jesus taught them, affirmed them, insisted on them.

Dan
Why I Am (Still) a Christian

[Free Baptist]

There just are NO apostles of the same order as found in the New Testament. The apostles as found in Ephesians 4:11 are no more; God intends for there to be no more. No more prophets either, since Holy Ghost-indwelt believers (if any man have not the spirit of Christ he is none of His -- Romans 8:9) have a completed written revelation...the Bible.

[Free Baptist]

In your articles of faith are the Three Persons co-equal members of the Godhead? Is Jesus Christ God manifest in the flesh?

[BibChr]

This should be a really simple question. Any Biblically-instructed Christian (which should be, but, sadly, isn't, a tautology) could answer it. I'll try it one more time:

How many TRUE gods are there?

I'm looking for a number.

Dan

[rabidralph]

I hope the scroll says, "Stop negotiating with the palestinians."

[ppaul]

The Bible is the word of God.

And the Book of Mormon is...?

[carumba]

Here is where we disagree. I believe there was a restoration of the organization that Jesus Christ established. So we have come full circle to the question of the Book of Mormon. Which is where this stuff all started. A couple of leather scraps in the desert and look at all the hot air generated. You can only seek these answers by approaching God. Men and logic lack capacity and vision to get a handle on the infinite. I am logging off for now so there will be a delay in any other questions or posts after this.

[Sloth]

"I've just been handed this 3,500-year-old autograph manuscript of Moses' private diary -- and it alleges that George W. Bush is a cokehead."

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[DelphiUser]

Try a dictionary ( http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=postmodernism )

I have called you nothing, but wished you well, this is why I said this was starting to become fun. I have questioned your motives only because they appear questionable 8-D IMNSHO to attack another's religious faith is to bring your own into question, and yes feel free to question mine by this logic :-)

Have you read the book you attack?

Mormonism and the bible Are both true at the same time And I can call you an old man with a bald head, but that doesn't make you one either (even though your post hints at it).< BIG GRIN >

This is definitely going to be fun.

[armydoc]

Perhaps you could address a couple of these LDS teachings:

What does Mormonism teach? The doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) are very interesting. Most of the 'odd' ones are not initially taught to potential converts. But they should be. Instead, "they are are revealed later as one matures and gains the ability to accept them." The LDS Church tries to make its official doctrines appear Christian but what underlies those Christian sounding terms is far from Christian in meaning. Following are the teachings of its officials throughout the years. Please note that these teachings are documented from Mormon writers, not anti-Mormon writers. Finally, many Mormons respond that most of the the citations below are not from official Mormon writings, as if that disproves the doctrines they teach. If they are not official, fine. But, if not, then why have the Mormon apostles and high officials taught them, written them, and why are their books sold in Mormon bookstores? The truth is, the following is what Mormons are taught. Atonement
"Jesus paid for all our sins when He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane," (Laurel Rohlfing, “Sharing Time: The Atonement,” Friend, Mar. 1989, 39.)

"We accept Christ's atonement by repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and obeying all of the commandments," (Gospel Principles, Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1979, pg. 68.)

Baptism
Baptism for the dead, (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. II, p. 141.) This is a practice of baptizing each other in place of non-Mormons who are now dead. Their belief is that in the afterlife, the "newly baptized" person will be able to enter into a higher level of Mormon heaven.

Bible
"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. . ." 8th Article of Faith of the Mormon Church.
"Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God." (1 Nephi 13:28).

Book of Mormon
The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, 4:461.)

Devil, the
The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, page 192.)
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god." (Mormon Doctrine, page 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, page 8.)

God
God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.)
"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s..." (D&C 130:22).
God is in the form of a man, (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 3.)
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345 God the Father had a Father, (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476; Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19; Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105.)
God resides near a star called Kolob, (Pearl of Great Price, pages 34-35; Mormon Doctrine, p. 428.)
God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus, (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; vol. 8, p. 115.) - This one is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon church taught it.
"Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).

God, becoming a god
After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354.)
"Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them," (DC 132:20).

God, many gods
There are many gods, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
"And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light (Book of Abraham 4:3)

God, mother goddess
There is a mother god, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443.)
God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, (Mormon Doctrine p. 516.)

God, Trinity
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)

Gospel, the
The true gospel was lost from the earth. Mormonism is its restoration, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 182-185.)

Consists of laws and ordinances: "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.'" (Articles of Faith p. 79)

Heaven
There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial, Mormon Doctrine, p. 348.

Holy Ghost, the
The Holy Ghost is a male personage, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, (Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, page 118; Journal of Discources, Vol. 5, page 179.)

Jesus
The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, page 129.)
Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163; Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15.)
Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.)
"Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115).
"Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine," by Bruce McConkie, p. 547).
"Christ Not Begotten of Holy Ghost ...Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man, and that Man was God!" (Doctrines of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith, 1954, 1:18).
"Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh ..." (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, pg. 150).

Joseph Smith
If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670.)

Pre-existence
We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth, (Journal of Discourse, Vol. 4, p. 218.)
The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, page 129.)
The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, page 192.)

Prophets
We need prophets today, the same as in the Old Testament, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 444-445.)

Salvation
"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation." (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206.)
A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god." (Mormon Doctrine, page 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, page 8.)
Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.)
Good works are necessary for salvation, Articles of Faith, p. 92.)
There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188.)
"The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79.)
"As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.'" (Articles of Faith p. 79).
"This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts" (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).
"We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).

Trinity, the
The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)
"Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God [anyhow]--three in one and one in three. . .It is curious organization… All are crammed into one God according to sectarianism (Christian faith). It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God--he would be a giant or a monster." (Joseph Smith, Teachings, 372).

[FatherofFive]

“Mormonism and the bible Are both true at the same time”

Can you tell me how the nature of the Mormon gods and the God of Scripture can both be true?

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret. If the vail was rent to-day, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,--I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form--like yourselves, in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked, and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another. – Joseph Smith from King Follett Discourse

For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity. Moroni 8:18

Before the mountains were born, the earth and the world brought forth, from eternity to eternity you are God. Psalm 90:2

The Bible says "Thou shalt not have strange gods before me."

What is stranger than a Mormon god who:
- starts off as a single Spirit, eternal and all-powerful;
- who then becomes, perhaps, two gods in one, and then three;
- who never changes, yet was once born a man, lived, sinned, repented, and died;
- who was made God the Father of this world by his own God;
- and who will make his own children gods someday of their own worlds?

You are right. This should be fun.

[DelphiUser]

John 17 Verse 21: "That they all may be one as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me."

I do not believe the apostles joined together (Transformer style) to become a giant "APOSTLE", how come Jesus and god can't have the same purpose? (Christs analogy, ignored by the council at Nicea)

How come God must be a ventriloquist at Christ's baptism?

You guys are starting to crack me up, too bad I have a meeting, I'll check back later