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ACLU backs Wiccan suit
The Washington Times ^ | 8-10-05 | Dionne Walker

Posted on 08/10/2005 11:25:50 AM PDT by JZelle

RICHMOND -- Civil liberties lawyers have appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court to allow a Wiccan priestess to offer prayers before a public board's meetings. Cynthia Simpson was turned down in 2002 when she asked the Chesterfield Board of Supervisors to add her name to the list of people who customarily open the board's meetings with a religious invocation. The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals sided with the suburban Richmond county. In their petition, received by the court yesterday, American Civil Liberties Union lawyers accuse the federal appeals court of trying to "obscure with legal smoke and mirrors" Chesterfield's preference for mainline religions. "Although Establishment Clause jurisprudence may be beset with conflicting tests, uncertain outcomes and ongoing debate, one principle has never been compromised ... that one religious denomination cannot be officially preferred over another," ACLU attorneys wrote in their 13-page filing. County officials said they had the right to limit the prayers to Judeo-Christian beliefs and religions based on a single god.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: Virginia
KEYWORDS: aclu; chesterfield; churchandstate; lawsuit; vaaclu; virginia; wiccan
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1 posted on 08/10/2005 11:25:51 AM PDT by JZelle
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

To: JZelle

3 posted on 08/10/2005 11:31:37 AM PDT by FormerACLUmember
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To: JZelle

What's next? Ritual sacrafices or ritual sexual rites officiated by satanic priests?

Somehow, someday, the Supream Court needs to aquire a healthy dose of gravitas and stop all of this non-sensical politically correct bovine scat.


4 posted on 08/10/2005 11:32:30 AM PDT by GLH3IL (What's good for America is bad for liberals.)
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To: JZelle

Inquisition anyone?

Not that I'm seriously suggesting it. Well, not that seriously. Well...I'll shut up now. But the ACLU better shut its word hole, or they are going to dig themselves into a hole they can't sue their way out of...


5 posted on 08/10/2005 11:33:53 AM PDT by Alexander Rubin
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To: JZelle

This is crazy. If the ACLU wins this then every nutburger who wants to call his perverted world view a "religion" has a right to lead any government body in prayer, if prayer is a traditional part of that body's proceedings.


6 posted on 08/10/2005 11:34:12 AM PDT by joebuck
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To: FormerACLUmember

ACLU = Anti Christian Lawyers Union


7 posted on 08/10/2005 11:35:22 AM PDT by TXBSAFH (NHL legend Conn Smythe: "If you can't beat 'em in the alley, you can't beat 'em on the ice.")
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To: TXBSAFH

8 posted on 08/10/2005 11:37:23 AM PDT by FormerACLUmember
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To: JZelle

....and will she sacrifice a black roster or dance naked around a pole?


9 posted on 08/10/2005 11:40:23 AM PDT by Kurt_D
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To: All

Are Christian prayers the only prayers that can be said at a public meeting or event?

And if so, why?


10 posted on 08/10/2005 11:40:24 AM PDT by Madeleine Ward
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To: JZelle

The ACLU should be closed down as the subversive organization which it is. Again Washington continues a patter of supporting runaway abuses of freedoms in this country. When the freedom becomes DESTRUCTIVE, then it needs to be put out of business. The ACLU, and all of its COMMUNIST UNDERPINNINGS, needs to be flattened.


11 posted on 08/10/2005 11:40:31 AM PDT by EagleUSA
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To: joebuck
f the ACLU wins this then every nutburger who wants to call his perverted world view a "religion" has a right to lead any government body in prayer, if prayer is a traditional part of that body's proceedings.

I think you've got it.

And don't forget, the ACLU is also litigating in favor of using the koran in court.

If they win that, your scenario will apply there, as well.

12 posted on 08/10/2005 11:42:04 AM PDT by skip_intro
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To: FormerACLUmember
Cf. Maurice Terry, The Ultimate Evil
13 posted on 08/10/2005 11:43:54 AM PDT by Republicus2001
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To: Madeleine Ward

Was this nation nation founded by witches? On Wiccan principles? Would you want to live in a country that was?


14 posted on 08/10/2005 11:45:26 AM PDT by over3Owithabrain
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To: Jay777

Ping


15 posted on 08/10/2005 11:46:23 AM PDT by EdReform (Free Republic - helping to keep our country a free republic. Thank you for your financial support!)
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To: Madeleine Ward
Our founding fathers would not have thought people would have descended to such a low level of questioning the primacy of Christianity.
They said that the state should not establish a certain official brand of religion(Christianity).
This means Methodist, Quaker etc.
It was of course aimed at not having the official Church of United States. (Like the Church of England).

What they did not intend was to separate the state from Christianity. Only fools today think this.
If they were here today, they would personally horsewhip the ACLU types.
16 posted on 08/10/2005 11:55:09 AM PDT by HereInTheHeartland (The Democrat party is the official party of the Morlocks.)
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To: Madeleine Ward
Are Christian prayers the only prayers that can be said at a public meeting or event?

You are a complete idiot if you need to do debate the wisdom in allowing wiccan prayer in our government.

17 posted on 08/10/2005 12:00:51 PM PDT by Future Snake Eater (The plan was simple, like my brother-in-law Phil. But unlike Phil, this plan just might work.)
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To: FormerACLUmember

The only problem with this cartoon is that it should say "Christianity" instead of "religion". The ACLU fights for all religions except Christianity.


18 posted on 08/10/2005 12:02:13 PM PDT by taxesareforever (Government is running amuck)
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To: JZelle

Freedom of religion. If you allow access to one you must grant access to all. If you disagree there are plenty of theocratic nations you might want to move to because the USA is not and should not be a Theocracy.

(going to put on my flame-proof suit now)


19 posted on 08/10/2005 12:03:29 PM PDT by Ignatius J Reilly
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To: joebuck

"If the ACLU wins this then every nutburger who wants to call his perverted world view a "religion" has a right to lead any government body in prayer, if prayer is a traditional part of that body's proceedings."

When you open the door the wind will blow all manner of things in. Sounds like a good argument of separation of church and state to me. No government endorsed prayer no problem.


20 posted on 08/10/2005 12:03:43 PM PDT by ndt
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To: over3Owithabrain

You don't answer my question, so let me try again under a different way.

Our Constitution provides for the freedom of religion. I like that.

If Christians get to say Christian prayers at a public meeting, why can't another religion?


21 posted on 08/10/2005 12:04:22 PM PDT by Madeleine Ward
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To: Gimme my boots

22 posted on 08/10/2005 12:05:38 PM PDT by Bluegrass Conservative
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To: JZelle
County officials said they had the right to limit the prayers to Judeo-Christian beliefs and religions based on a single god.

I don't agree with that, since it's a blatant government establishment of religion. However the county should be able to limit the people who offer prayers at the board meetings to representatives of religions that have a significant number of adherents in the county, or at least limit the frequency of their participation to something proportional to the % of the county population which belongs to that religion. Per the standard given by the county officials, a Wahabbi Muslim would be welcome to give the prayer, but not a Wiccan -- even though I strongly suspect (hope) that there are more Wiccans than Wahhabi Muslims in the Richmond area.

23 posted on 08/10/2005 12:05:41 PM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: GLH3IL
What's next? Ritual sacrafices or ritual sexual rites officiated by satanic priests?

So which do you want? Religious activity at public meetings? Or no religious activity at public meetings? You can't have your cake and eat it too!

24 posted on 08/10/2005 12:06:54 PM PDT by Bluegrass Conservative
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To: Future Snake Eater

"You are a complete idiot if you need to do debate the wisdom in allowing wiccan prayer in our government."

Why don't you tell me why it would be a problem?

The Wiccan moral code is based on reciprocity, an issue also covered on the temple mount.

P.S. I am not Wiccan or Christian


25 posted on 08/10/2005 12:07:17 PM PDT by ndt
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To: Kurt_D
. . . or dance naked around a pole?

Are you saying that Bubba's House of Ta-Ta's down the street from me is actually a type of church? LOL

26 posted on 08/10/2005 12:08:06 PM PDT by Bluegrass Conservative
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To: Madeleine Ward
"If Christians get to say Christian prayers at a public meeting, why can't another religion?"

Because they weren't invited.

27 posted on 08/10/2005 12:08:10 PM PDT by joebuck
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To: Future Snake Eater

I feel the need to debate the provisions in the Constitution.

If you want to allow prayer in government, then where in the Constitution does it allow you to deny any religion the right to have their prayer included?


28 posted on 08/10/2005 12:08:56 PM PDT by Madeleine Ward
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To: JZelle

Why do they need a prayer to open the ceremony at all?


29 posted on 08/10/2005 12:09:50 PM PDT by Stone Mountain
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To: joebuck
This is crazy. If the ACLU wins this then every nutburger who wants to call his perverted world view a "religion" has a right to lead any government body in prayer, if prayer is a traditional part of that body's proceedings.

That's correct. On the other hand, it isn't really fair to only allow Christian prayers either. Here's a simple answer. Have these government bodies abolish group prayer. Aren't these people capable of praying on their own?
30 posted on 08/10/2005 12:11:52 PM PDT by Stone Mountain
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To: Ignatius J Reilly
Freedom of religion. If you allow access to one you must grant access to all. If you disagree there are plenty of theocratic nations you might want to move to because the USA is not and should not be a Theocracy.

Probably an ironic statment to make but . . . AMEN!

31 posted on 08/10/2005 12:12:07 PM PDT by Bluegrass Conservative
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To: Stone Mountain
Here's a simple answer. Have these government bodies abolish group prayer. Aren't these people capable of praying on their own?

Damn, you're a brave man to put out such a logical idea on here! LOL

32 posted on 08/10/2005 12:13:57 PM PDT by Bluegrass Conservative
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To: skip_intro

" And don't forget, the ACLU is also litigating in favor of using the Koran in court."

Isn't the whole point of swearing on the Bible supposed to make you fear not telling the truth? If you don't accept the Bible as being true, swearing on it means nothing. I would rather have a Muslim swear on the Koran, at least it would hold significance for him and maybe prompt him to tell the truth.


33 posted on 08/10/2005 12:14:43 PM PDT by ndt
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To: Madeleine Ward
If Christians get to say Christian prayers at a public meeting, why can't another religion?

The prayers are said on behalf of the legislators, assemblymen, or whatever term is appropriate for the body being assembled. Rabbis are often called to give such a prayer, so there goes the "Christian-only" element of that debate.

If any official member of the body wants to identify themselves as a Wiccan, then Wiccan prayers might be appropriate. Until then, they really aren't, are they?

34 posted on 08/10/2005 12:17:37 PM PDT by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: Madeleine Ward

I'mn pretty big on original intent. We can surmise what the founding fathers thought of witchcraft. Calling that coven of quackery a religion is an insult to not only Christians, but all time-honored and God-respecting religions. But have it your way - witches prayers to Satan, pot and porn. Hey it's the libertarian way!


35 posted on 08/10/2005 12:17:55 PM PDT by over3Owithabrain
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To: Bluegrass Conservative

So the stifling of religious expression of people that happen to hold public office is logical? Abolishing group prayer by elected representatives is logical?


36 posted on 08/10/2005 12:18:21 PM PDT by Texas_Jarhead
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To: Madeleine Ward

"If Christians get to say Christian prayers at a public meeting, why can't another religion?"

First of all, Wiccans are not a religious sect. They are a bunch of sexually confused, birkenstock wearing, henna tattoo getting, patchouli-scented, Cherry Garcia eating, tree-hugging losers, who think that if they wear enough black and say the right incantations, the lord of darkness will appear and get them a date. That is why you never see blond cheerleader types going for the occult.

Second, fine if they want to say their little prayers to some goddess or a fern or whatever, let them. However you'd have to give the opportunity to every mental patient and crackpot out there.


37 posted on 08/10/2005 12:19:12 PM PDT by exile (Exile - Helen Thomas tried to lure me into her Gingerbread House.)
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To: ndt
I've been told that Muslims are under no obligation to speak the truth about worldly matters to infidels.
38 posted on 08/10/2005 12:20:19 PM PDT by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: Bluegrass Conservative

I kind of like the moment of silence.

It's better than no religion in public.

And it's better than being forced to sit through a prayer from a religion that's not a Christian prayer.


39 posted on 08/10/2005 12:20:26 PM PDT by Madeleine Ward
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To: Texas_Jarhead
So the stifling of religious expression of people that happen to hold public office is logical?

To those who hate religion as well as all people of faith, not only is it logical to them but they consider it a higher form of "Freedom of Religion."

40 posted on 08/10/2005 12:22:11 PM PDT by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: exile

What's next? Inviting Tom Cruise to give the Scientologist viewpoint?


41 posted on 08/10/2005 12:23:30 PM PDT by FormerLib (Kosova: "land stolen from Serbs and given to terrorist killers in a futile attempt to appease them.")
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To: exile

Thanks for not answering my question.

I don't care if Wicca is a religious sect or not, although I doubt you know what you are talking about.


42 posted on 08/10/2005 12:24:52 PM PDT by Madeleine Ward
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To: Dead Corpse

Possible Interest ping.


43 posted on 08/10/2005 12:25:01 PM PDT by Dawsonville_Doc (Moving to NC as fast as I can...)
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To: exile

Wow you're opinion of Wiccans is amazing. You may be right about a lot of the qualities you listed but you are wrong aboput one thing - They ARE a religous sect. They just believe in a different invisible magical entity than you.


44 posted on 08/10/2005 12:25:05 PM PDT by Ignatius J Reilly
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To: JZelle

A Cult does not a religion make.


45 posted on 08/10/2005 12:25:14 PM PDT by Leatherneck_MT (3-7-77 (No that's not a Date))
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To: Texas_Jarhead
So the stifling of religious expression of people that happen to hold public office is logical?

There is no stifling. No one seems to have a problem with a moment for personal prayer.

Abolishing group prayer by elected representatives is logical?

Yes, because if you allow a Christian prayer, how do you keep from allowing a Muslim prayer? A Jewish prayer? A Hindu prayer? And, if you allow those, where does it stop? Wiccan? Satanic?

46 posted on 08/10/2005 12:26:41 PM PDT by Bluegrass Conservative
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To: Madeleine Ward

"I don't care if Wicca is a religious sect or not, although I doubt you know what you are talking about."

Not knowing what I'm talking about has never stopped me before. I'm just a guy who hates hippies.


47 posted on 08/10/2005 12:27:07 PM PDT by exile (Exile - Helen Thomas tried to lure me into her Gingerbread House.)
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To: Madeleine Ward
I feel the need to debate the provisions in the Constitution.

If you want to allow prayer in government, then where in the Constitution does it allow you to deny any religion the right to have their prayer included?

The Constitution, for good or for ill, was constructed during a time when, rightly or wrongly, its framers considered that we had arrived at an age in which most reasonable men would accept at least the deistic concept of a just (but remote) God, and perhaps the theistic idea of a just and directly-involved God. It had not entered their heads to believe that educated people would embrace ancient, abandoned creeds of tree-and-star-worship any more than they would revive the sacrifice of bulls to Mithras, or the tossing of infants into the fires of Moloch. They beleived in the onward march of human progress (a rather newish idea at the time) and the innate decency and sanity of human beings. They really believed that humans, freed from oppression, would reveal their inner, truly good selves. They did not count on the spite and bile that would erupt later, spit in the faces of these assumptions, and use the very mechanisms of the Constitution to pee on the sort of nation that the Constitution was intended to produce.

Civilized people of good will do not have to spell out the obvious. Those who cannot or will not see the obvious regard the absence of explicit prohibition as permission.

Or something.

48 posted on 08/10/2005 12:27:15 PM PDT by Dunstan McShane
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To: exile
They are a bunch of sexually confused, birkenstock wearing, henna tattoo getting, patchouli-scented, Cherry Garcia eating, tree-hugging losers, who think that if they wear enough black and say the right incantations, the lord of darkness will appear and get them a date.

HEY!!!! Don't know the Cherry Garcia until you try it. :-)

49 posted on 08/10/2005 12:28:36 PM PDT by Bluegrass Conservative
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To: Ignatius J Reilly

Oooh Logic. This should be interesting. You might want to put on two suits.


50 posted on 08/10/2005 12:29:03 PM PDT by rattrap
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