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ACLU backs Wiccan suit
The Washington Times ^ | 8-10-05 | Dionne Walker

Posted on 08/10/2005 11:25:50 AM PDT by JZelle

RICHMOND -- Civil liberties lawyers have appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court to allow a Wiccan priestess to offer prayers before a public board's meetings. Cynthia Simpson was turned down in 2002 when she asked the Chesterfield Board of Supervisors to add her name to the list of people who customarily open the board's meetings with a religious invocation. The 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals sided with the suburban Richmond county. In their petition, received by the court yesterday, American Civil Liberties Union lawyers accuse the federal appeals court of trying to "obscure with legal smoke and mirrors" Chesterfield's preference for mainline religions. "Although Establishment Clause jurisprudence may be beset with conflicting tests, uncertain outcomes and ongoing debate, one principle has never been compromised ... that one religious denomination cannot be officially preferred over another," ACLU attorneys wrote in their 13-page filing. County officials said they had the right to limit the prayers to Judeo-Christian beliefs and religions based on a single god.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: Virginia
KEYWORDS: aclu; chesterfield; churchandstate; lawsuit; vaaclu; virginia; wiccan
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To: Junior
Teaching intelligent design theory is no more indoctrination than teaching evolution. It's up to the student what they want to believe. If schools are controlled locally, then different schools will teach different things. If someone doesn't like it, they should send their kids to a different school. The Constitution does not forbid favoring religion, it forbids the establishment of a national religion.
141 posted on 08/10/2005 6:39:50 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Intelligent design has nothing to back it up and it is a transparent attempt to bring creationism back into the curriculum. And not just any creationism, but Christian creationism. The only non-Chritian pushing for ID is a fundamentalist Moslem. Evolution at least has the benefit of being as much a scientific theory as atomic theory, or the theory of gravitation.


142 posted on 08/10/2005 6:51:00 PM PDT by Junior (Just because the voices in your head tell you to do things doesn't mean you have to listen to them)
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To: Junior

You have a right to that opinion, but you have no right to impose your opinion on everyone else.


143 posted on 08/10/2005 6:53:17 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Junior

Santarians asking for an animal sacrifice before the meeting would be treated the same.

It is a loony fring and the fact the communist founded ACLU is involved speaks volumes to the LACK of legitimacy.

This is not a case of equals but a matter of using an absurd notion, "wicca" is a legitimate religion.

It was clearly and convincingly created as a fraud in the 50 and it remains so today. As for your referance to army chaplains, that is laughable since the politicians have been pushing the army as social experiment now for some time. (see don't ask don't tell)

It should be treated the same way as the surf and turn religion and the santaria religion. No invite.


144 posted on 08/10/2005 7:02:03 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE!)
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To: longtermmemmory
There is a difference between a sacrifice and an invocation. The Wiccans are only asking to supply the latter, just as their Christian counterparts.

And, as I pointed out, Wicca is already a recognized religion.

145 posted on 08/10/2005 7:29:57 PM PDT by Junior (Just because the voices in your head tell you to do things doesn't mean you have to listen to them)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

No. There is no imposition of opinion. Indeed, there is an attempt to give the Wiccans the same right to voice their opinion in a public forum as is now enjoyed by Christians. If anyone is imposing an opinion, it would be the latter.


146 posted on 08/10/2005 7:32:04 PM PDT by Junior (Just because the voices in your head tell you to do things doesn't mean you have to listen to them)
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To: Junior
On the other hand, as I pointed out, in the interest of fairness if one religion is invited to give the invocation, then all religions must be offered the same opportunity.

So if I found a religion based on worshipping guys named Daryl, I should be allowed to pray over a government body?

You would probably say "yes," therefore, you have no idea what you're talking about. Your claims of rationality and enlightenment don't mean anything in this argument. You have no idea what this could mean.

147 posted on 08/10/2005 7:36:52 PM PDT by Future Snake Eater (The plan was simple, like my brother-in-law Phil. But unlike Phil, this plan just might work.)
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To: Junior

I was talking about your right to impose an anti-Christian agenda in public schools. The witch doesn't have the right to impose her religion on a free people or their representatives.


148 posted on 08/10/2005 7:42:34 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Future Snake Eater

Do you have a fairly substantial following? One of the criteria for determining whether something is a cult or a religion is the number of followers. Wicca has a pretty good sized following. Hell, it has enough of a following that chaplains serve in the military.


149 posted on 08/10/2005 7:54:34 PM PDT by Junior (Just because the voices in your head tell you to do things doesn't mean you have to listen to them)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

I am not "anti-Christian." I merely point out that what's sauce for the goose (Christians) is sauce for the gander (Wiccans). The government cannot favor one over the other.


150 posted on 08/10/2005 7:56:25 PM PDT by Junior (Just because the voices in your head tell you to do things doesn't mean you have to listen to them)
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To: Junior

Sure it can.


151 posted on 08/10/2005 7:58:05 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: All
You can join the fight against the ACLU and their ilk by becoming involved with and supporting the following organizations:

Alliance Defense Fund (ADF) - http://www.alliancedefensefund.org

Thomas More Law Center (TMLC) - http://www.thomasmore.org

American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ) - http://www.aclj.org

The Rutherford Institute - http://www.rutherford.org/

Stop the ACLU Coalition - http://www.stoptheaclu.org


Here are a few examples of how two of those organizations are fighting back:

ADF Contacts Over 3,600 School Districts Over Attempts To Censor Christmas

ADF: 700 lawyers ready to fight ACLU lawsuits

ADF: Pentagons' Warning About Boyscouts Is Absurd

Thomas More Law Center: Town of Palm Beach Pays $50,000 In Attorney Fees Apologizes To Women In Nativity Lawsuit


Additional information:

The ACLU must be destroyed: Joseph Farah supports Boy Scouts, urges Americans to fight back

Citizens mobilized to stop ACLU (seeks to consign group to 'ash heap of history')

ACLU fulfilling communist agenda

Revealing FACTS on the ACLU from its own writings

See how YOUR Senator or Representative ranks with the ACLU

This group just started on December 3, 2004 and are looking for new members to their yahoo group


My Personal Anti-ACLU Blog (Check it out and leave a comment!)

Let me know if you would like to join my ACLU Ping List!
152 posted on 08/10/2005 8:23:46 PM PDT by Jay777 (My personal blog: www.stoptheaclu.com)
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To: RepCath; Liz; IronJack; Grampa Dave; MeekOneGOP; Iris7; wkdaysoff; EdReform; Nick Danger; ...
PING!
153 posted on 08/10/2005 8:25:15 PM PDT by Jay777 (My personal blog: www.stoptheaclu.com)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Joe we're in rare agreement. However, I would expand on what you wrote: No one has the right to impose his/her religion on a free people. Period.


154 posted on 08/10/2005 8:26:49 PM PDT by Melas (The dumber the troll, the longer the thread)
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To: Junior
Do you have a fairly substantial following? One of the criteria for determining whether something is a cult or a religion is the number of followers.

So what is the cutoff? Ten people? 15? 37? 20 million? I would put the Christian God and His Son Jesus Christ against anything the wiccans can come up with. Numbers are numbers, but the presence of Jesus in your life, indeed in your nation, cannot be overemphasized in importance. Sure there are many socioeconomic reasons why some nations are better off than others, but the biggest difference, the one that really made the USA a truly powerful, wealthy nation, is that we are founded as a Christian nation. I know what the Constitution says, and the Founding Fathers had their reasons, but I'll guarantee you they never saw anything like this ever becoming an issue. Strict interpretation of the Constitution is fine, but you need it in a context. Right now, we're looking at it from a liberal, if-it-feels-good-do-it context, and that's just going to lead us down a very dark, slippery path.

You can think of me as a religious nut if you want, but I cannot tell you how bad of an idea it would be for something as sacreligious as a wiccan to be allowed to perform some sort of perverted prayer over a ruling body of this country.

155 posted on 08/10/2005 8:27:40 PM PDT by Future Snake Eater (The plan was simple, like my brother-in-law Phil. But unlike Phil, this plan just might work.)
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To: Future Snake Eater

That sounds a whole lot like my ex-wife's favorite expression during PMS: "If you don't know, I'm not telling."


156 posted on 08/10/2005 8:30:46 PM PDT by Melas (The dumber the troll, the longer the thread)
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To: ndt
Isn't the whole point of swearing on the Bible supposed to make you fear not telling the truth? If you don't accept the Bible as being true, swearing on it means nothing. I would rather have a Muslim swear on the Koran, at least it would hold significance for him and maybe prompt him to tell the truth.

Careful - logic, common sense, quoting of the constitution, etc., etc., rarely works here with anti-Harry Potter threads and discussions involving religion - particularly Wicca.

157 posted on 08/10/2005 8:46:01 PM PDT by Spyder
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To: JZelle
"Simpson, 49, a member of a local group known as the Broom Riders Association. "I've been a separation-of-church-and-stater all my life, long before I was a witch... . That's what was driving me all along."

Simpson said she would seek a full-court review of the decision. The appeals court based its ruling in Simpson v. Chesterfield Co. Board Of Supervisors on Marsh v. Chambers, a 1983 Supreme Court decision that ruled nonsectarian legislative prayer is generally constitutional. The 4th Circuit wrote that Chesterfield County has done a good job of including leaders from a variety of religions to offer opening prayers and therefore abided by the Constitution by not advancing any one faith

Thank you Ma'am. We'll take your request under advisement, Broom Hilda. LOL

This would be a good case for Edith Jones to decide.

158 posted on 08/10/2005 9:09:53 PM PDT by Kryptonite
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To: JZelle

Unusual to find them supporting invocations by any religion when they've made such a name for themselves attempting to sterilize every meeting, game or venue from invocations involving "mainstream" religious such as Christians or Jews.


159 posted on 08/10/2005 11:29:00 PM PDT by newzjunkey (Choose LIFE. Circumcision = Barbarism. It's HIS body; what about HIS right to choose?)
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To: Madeleine Ward
If Christians get to say Christian prayers at a public meeting, why can't another religion?

Hush! You're being extreme!! There are some religious bigots here, no question. They're like a Judeo-Christian Taliban. It's an embarrassment to those who support Freedom of Religion regardless of how hair brained or "modern" it might be.

160 posted on 08/10/2005 11:31:11 PM PDT by newzjunkey (Choose LIFE. Circumcision = Barbarism. It's HIS body; what about HIS right to choose?)
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