Posted on 08/22/2005 11:27:24 AM PDT by churchillbuff
What does "stay the course" mean? At one time it meant "regime change." Then it came to mean "weapons of mass destruction," then it meant "war on terror." Now apparently it means an Iraq that is "democratic and free." ...that is nonsense. How many Arab countries are currently both free and democratic -- from Mauritania to Saudi Arabia? Not a one. Does that not suggest that it would be impossible for the United States to impose on Arab culture what we mean by freedom and democracy? In fact, how many Muslim countries can boast of Western-style civil society and democracy? Turkey, maybe, at least up to a point. Iran? Pakistan? Bangladesh? Indonesia? Does that suggest that in its present form Islamic culture is not conducive to what we mean by democracy? ...[snip]
In Iraq ...the Shiite majority is struggling to create an Islamic republic on the Iranian model, more moderate, perhaps, but still a theocratic state in which the mullahs have supreme power -- and women have almost no rights at all. Indeed "staying the course" seems to mean fighting Iran's war against Iraq with Chinese money (which pays for the part of the national debt the war is piling up through the purchase of American treasury notes).
I do not deny that there are elements in the Islamic heritage that are compatible with a civil and democratic society. I insist, however, that these elements do not dominate today in any Islamic country, again with the partial exception of Turkey. But President Bush is nonetheless going to create by sheer willpower and the blood of American troops such a society in Iraq?
....Most Americans believe that real democracy is something like our own. They believe that the president is promising that in Iraq. It is a foolish, ignorant, stupid promise.
Democracy does not mean merely that the majority of voters elect their rulers. It also means the rights of the minority are protected. It means freedom of the press, freedom of expression, freedom of religion, the right to seek redress of grievance, an impartial and independent judiciary, it means no street violence after an election, the right to presumed innocence and to appeal court decisions, respect for those who are different from you, protection of property and contracts, a stable and generally accepted civic culture, civilian control of the military and the police -- all the precious and priceless freedoms and rights which we Americans take for granted -- however imperfectly they may be protected or honored.
Majority rule, without these kinds of safeguards, turns into tyranny, total power invested in the monarch or the general or the cleric or the caudillo or maximum leader or whoever else claims at gunpoint to embody the will of the people. No matter how long Bush "stays the course" in Iraq, the history of that part of the world suggests that the end result of our "regime change" will be something like that. For this, American blood is being spilled?
Western democracy, far from perfect, is still the best there is. One may call what goes on in Cuba or Russia or China or Egypt or Algeria or Pakistan or Indonesia democracy not in the Western style, if one wishes. But the president should not deceive the American people. What will happen in Iraq will be very much like what existed before Saddam came to power and eventually lead, in the name of the will of the people, to another tyrant who will rule with an automatic weapon in his hand.
"Walk out of cave and make fire, bound to end badly" - Zog
Depends on how they interpret the Quran. There seems to be some disagreement on that.
ITM is the most influential blog in Iraq. Their information is often from direct sources. They report directly from TV and paper sources. Two of the founders of ITM even meet President Bush last December. They are a fantastic source of information from Iraq. They often spend time translating news from Arabic; news never seen here.
Greeley's saying the same thing. He's saying it will look like an old-fashion Middle East dictatorship, with one-party or one-religion rule. Glad I counseled all the young people in my family against enlisting in this war. It wasn't worth the blood of young Americans. Any more than Bill Clinton's wars in Haiti and Somalia were. In 2000 Bush promised no more of that squandering of the lives of US troops for utopian nation-building. I applauded. He should have kept his word.
If it's ignoring facts that all reputable news sources are reporting, it doesn't deserve to be very influential. From what you say about it, it sounds like it cherry picks news and shuts its eyes to the Islamic influence on the new constitution.
Sharia law will NOT be basis of their Constitution. Iraq is 60% women and they will not vote to put themselves under an Iranian style theocracy. Rueters is putting the worse possible spin on this. Remember, this all has to be voted upon by the people. I doubt they will submit to having theocrats ruling their lives.
Actually, that part, I think, is a pretty good question. What DOES Stay the course mean? And when do we get "there"? I think the erratic John McCain, in a moment of lucidity, had a pretty good definition. When he can fly into Baghdad International, get off the plane, and drive down the freeways and main streets to the green zone without escorts and without having to worry for his life.
And re that constitution, people forget that half the country is women and they get a vote on it so, while they alone aren't enough to torpedo it if it's too restrictive, they wield considerable political power. And we will be making sure they get to vote.
Unless their men won't let them out of the house, of course.
And in Iran, you can't make the assumption those black-robed mullahs are going to be running things forever. Right now I think you've got a government that's going to make their rule look like a tea party.
I agree with you, however, we should be very concerned about the possibility of Iraq becoming more or less an extended client state of Iran. Iran is one of the biggest state sponsors of terrorism in the world after all, which I think is why they were included as a member of the Axis of Evil, and rightly so.
If that ends up happening, the situation might well end up being as bad or worse than it was before. An eventual showdown of some kind or another with Iran seems inevitable.
Who knows, maybe the experiment will work.
If not, there's always Plan B
Actually, democracy doesn't mean ANY of that at all, which is why it's a bad system of government. Democracy is mob rule. A constitutional republic is required to protect minority interests.
How many conservatives argue that Christianity is "a source" (which is, as I said, a big improvement over "the source") for our own laws and Constitution. It is to be expected in Iraq that it is simply enshirined in the document.
And there are many other things in the constitution (according to Iraq the model there is a clause about issuing "no laws that are against the values of democracy and human rights" in there as well) we can be proud of and might make our efforts pay off.
The ink isn't even dry and some people are ready to throw up there hands and lock themselves away forever.
I understand your concern. Believe me, I sometimes fear the worse will happen. ITM is quite balanced. They do present news that at first glance would be disheartening. The often mention the negative pressures of Islamic clerics. I have been reading ITM for over a year and I must say, they really have been provided a perspective that is positive and good. I am certain that a majority of Iraqis will NOT vote themselves into a theocracy. If you can spend time reading ITM, it will help provide another perspective.
You focus on Islam as the bad influence over there, as I have often done, but it now seems to me that Islam is NOT the sole or even necessarily the primary determinent of Middle Eastern culture. It seems to me that Islam is to Iraq as Catholicism is to the Mafia, i.e., a thin veneer over a society that operates according to ancient, unredeemed tribal rules of honor, revenge, ehnic chauvinism, bribery, extortion, theft, murder, rape, and general thuggery. I'd like to tell one Iraqi - especially a militant - face to face: "You're no more a Muslim than I am; you're a self-worshipping, blasphemous, idolatrous sack of sh*t. You're nothing more than a common criminal."
What did it get us in Viet Nam?
What did it get us from Lebanon?
What did it get us from Somalia?
A reputation for being unable to muster the courage and determination to defeat the enemy.
NO THANK YOU, NOT IN MY NAME
you make some very good points Steve. I agree, the other factors you mentioned are very influential.
Arabs!?
I am not surprised!
My thoughts, exactly.
Churchillbutt loves this stuff.
As all doom and gloomers...
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