Posted on 09/22/2005 6:06:19 PM PDT by BIRDS
"Expected Vatican Ban Roils American Church" Sep 22 4:15 PM US/Eastern
Word that a soon-to-be-released Vatican document will signal homosexuals are unwelcome in Roman Catholic seminaries even if they are celibate has devastated gay clergy _ and raised doubts among conservatives about whether an outright ban can be enforced.
A Vatican official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the document has not been released, said Thursday that the upcoming "instruction" from the Vatican's Congregation for Catholic Education will reaffirm the church's belief that homosexuals should not be ordained.
In recent decades, Vatican officials have stated several times that gays should not become priests because their sexual orientation is "intrinsically disordered" and makes them unsuitable for ministry.
(Excerpt) Read more at breitbart.com ...
No one would want to indulge in the behavior if they did not have a pre-existing inclination to do so. If a man gets horny upon contemplating other men, he is gay already before indulging in any homosexual acts.
There's no such thing as an arsonist who doesn't light fires.
There are some people who get sexual pleasure from lighting fires. There is already something wrong with them before they become arsonists.
Grow up!
Title now reads: "VATICAN MAY BAR BAYS FROM SEMINARIES"A
I'm thinking AP got more than a few complaints about their original flame-baiting headline.
Although a bay wouldn't be welcome, either, ha.
So the catholic church has adopted "DO ASK and DO EXPELL" as the standing policy.
Very logical and appropriate.
"and note that existing homosexuals currently in the Priesthood threaten "to leave" the Chuch if and when this instruction takes effect"
Good.
I don't think we disagree. And the fact that homosexuals can change - and cease to experience same sex attraction - attests to your comments. Through God's grace people can overcome (meaning become free from) all kinds of vice.
It's just that a man who find same sex attraction a constant temptation (or even a good deal of the time) is not a good candidate for the priesthood. But if he's overcome it and no longer experiences it, no longer identifies as "gay", that's a different story. But whatever the case, it looks as though Pope Benedict is taking care of business.
I posted this comment on another thread a while back, but it seems most applicable on this thread as well. I responded to the homosexuals are the pedophiles statement:
"the pedophiles WERE homosexuals.
In the priesthood, the homosexuals ARE the pedophiles.
Homosexuals do not belong in the priesthood in ANY capacity."
Your penchant for the obvious unfortunately is not as obvious to others. It should be. Why anyone would want the fox guarding the chicken coop is beyond me. Homosexuals by nature like men, and that frequently includes young men and little boys. You don't know which homosexuals are going to seek out only men, as opposed to those that will seek out young boys too. There is no test for that.
Ok, so now the Catholic Church has to decide who should gain entry for priesthood in a seminary and who should not. How will it know which homosexuals who claim to not practice it, will end up later on molesting young boys? Have them sign a document professing that they will not? Yeah, that will do the trick. The whole church scandal of child molestation argues against that.
Homosexuality is a sexual compulsion as well as a lifestyle. It's not going to go away upon entry into a seminary. The seminary is merely a hideout for homosexuals, by allowing them to mask their homosexual inclinations, and it is also a fertile hunting ground for those with predatory tendencies. Of course, you don't know which of the homosexuals let into the seminary are going to be more passive, and which will be aggressive. Therefore, is it not logical, for a church already so damaged in reputation over these matters, to make it a policy to not let homosexuals into the priesthood at all? In fact, this is the only way the church can protect itself from that which will otherwise be an ongoing problem, with its attendent lawsuits, and loss of monies better spent on the church's mission of spreading the good word and doing charitable deeds.
All homosexuals shoul be routed out and banned from the priesthood. Homosexuality is by nature a deviancy. Man was not physically made to mate with another man, it is biblically denounced, and it is against the laws of nature, no matter how many attempts to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear are made. It is what it is, a 1-3% deviancy from the norm.
Yes, there are problems with heterosexual predators within the Catholic priesthood too, but there is no numerical nor moral equivalence to the problems caused by homosexuality. The vast majority of "incidents" in the Catholic church are caused by homosexuals, not heterosexual priests. And although philandering priests having heterosexual relationships is not a good thing, it at least is not against the laws of nature. Let's face it, the problems in the church have primarily been caused by homosexual priests molesting young boys. The whole concept of allowing homosexual priests into the seminaries "just as long as they don't practice their homosexuality" is repugnant to me, and a cop-out. Pope Benedict XVI understands this, and I knew the minute he became Pope that things would start to change, that he would take the bull by the horns, and clean up the infestation within seminaries in the U.S. Go Pope B! You are everything I was hoping for and more.
Hear! Hear!
Yup.
You're right. But why would those other people, the ones who have a difficult time controlling their own demons, want to be a priest in the first place?
Undoubtedly there is a wide spectrum of motivations, from the godly to the diabolical.
Do you feel that good and evil are, at some basic level, attracted to each other? That the battle is joined - so to speak?
If they're celibate, why should they?
There is no indication that a witch hunt for homosexuals in the priesthood will take place.
We should hold heterosexuals to the same standard.
In other words, if a man even thinks sexually about women, he should be barred from the priesthood.
You know what Jesus said about lust (toward women). It's akin to committing adultery in one's heart.
It's a big topic...but here's my understanding.
Every person is in essence an eternal soul, covered by the materially molded (influenced) mind and temporary physical body. The soul is like a precious jewel, pure. But because we have fallen from loving obedience to God as individuals, our godly nature is now covered with envy and rebelliousness towards God. Everyone has his/her own specific mix of good and bad desires. We are not all at the same level - some are learning the lessons we're supposed to learn, some aren't.
Some are in such darkness that they are less than animals; some are getting ready to enter the Kingdom of God (far fewer, I fear). Those of us who are trying in some way to get closer to God can hear the whisper of the voice of God in our hearts along with the voice of selfish temptation. It's our choice who to listen to and follow.
Does that relate to your question?
I can see in myself both. Have done some very wicked things, which I greatly regret, and hope for a brighter future. We have a choice at every moment to serve God humbly, or our own self-centered desires. That's our free will. But once the choice is made, we must accept the result of each. Of course, the result of serving God is His pleasure and our happiness. The result of serving our own separate desires varies, but ultimately, it is pain.
Some of us do hold heterosexuals to that standard but I don't hold heterosexuals to any homosexual standard, nor know what that latter one is.
The tiresome argument, however, that homosexuality is parallel to heterosexuality in all coniderations may work fine in a class in social sciences undergraduate class, but this thread and the discussion is about the standards for Catholic Priests (not that you are making this argument, just saying here for the discussion).
I find the Pope's comments about as efficient and elaborate as need be: that within the context of the Priesthood, homosexuality represents an unacceptable state and I agree with him about that.
We as Christians have beliefs that often are not the same as popular culture but I don't think that's anything new, so much as it's something by this point that most of us take in stride.
Each choice defines and changes. Each choice makes the next one, in either direction, easier. Good begets good. And evil, evil. Like art - brush strokes add or take away from the beauty of the painting... No one choice of strokes is the painting, but the total is the picture.
There's talk going 'round that the motivations, in retrospect, were to change the Priesthood from within outward. If enough homosexuals were included in the Priesthood, more then would be and the Priesthood would change to accommodate homosexuality in the Catholic Church.
Such that, they made a start at that and we see the terrible damage that resulted. You asked as to why anyone with certain "demons" would even want to be in the Priesthood and it's like asking why a pedophile wants to be a scout leader, or why a man who beats up females would want to marry or why a drunk wants to drive a car, or why people smoke and...
The issue about the Priesthood, however, seems to have been very sinister (not that some in that previous list are not), and that was to change the Catholic Church from within to then become not Catholic but liberal-homosexual-anything-goes-do-it-if-it-makes-you-happy, etc, organization to talk about past lives and devinations and astrology and...
I exaggerate a tad but the process seems to have been one to place homosexuals in a greater area of influence in the one Church that has consistently confronted homosexuality in a Scriptural sense. Albeit failed terribly to protect and enforce during the years that followed but now catching up. I think the failures were, in fact, the results of the homosexual influx to the Priesthood, to state the obvious here. I'm sure many would agree...we had an increasing atmosphere of laissez-faire as to behaviors and accountability and, well, the wages of sin...we saw the results.
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