Posted on 10/27/2005 1:06:59 PM PDT by swarthyguy
"I'm just not very confident that they will choose the ballot box over the gun to get their point across. After all, it took a civil war in this country to determine the interests of the country outweighed those of the states. And many are still not thrilled with that outcome."
It is very hard to be confident in what choice the Iraqi people will make. I would simply offer that this time the choice is all theirs and the entire world is watching. The outcome is entirely on them as to what choice they indeed make.
I agree it took a civil war in this country to settle some things, and even when overwith some remain unhappy. It might well end up in a civil war there. That is one of the many choices they face today. I would say one thing that could help avoid that is strong allies that stand tall with them to fight those that would indeed create mass chaos and civil war. That is something we didn't have.
A fine man said this : No matter what is done or not done, a section of folks will be unhappy about it and will most likely voice their dissatisfaction. This in and of itself is not a reason to do, or not to do, something.
Gotta Love Rummy!
Two options:
They can do directional drilling.
We get ALL the oil and they can have the rest.
Are your suggesting that we have created a future Al-Frankenstan?
"Pure genius".
Thank you. I'm glad I could straighten you out on this one.
Ten years from now, after Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Jordan, Kuwait, Qatar, the U.A.E., and even Saudi Arabia have democratized and joined the 21st. Century, and the factory of anti-western brain-washing and suicidal rage has gone out of business, you can get ahold of me and I'll help you figure out what to think about the next big crisis.
Let's get Iraq done first.
That's assuming, as you do, that democratization will not put in power the very jihadis we are fighting against.
LOL. On what basis can you make such an assessment? If the Shia/Kurds outnumber the Sunnis four to one and control the levers of government, it won't matter anyway. AQ would love a civil war, which is why it won't happen.
If a civil war broke out, the Shia and Kurds wouldn't just roll over them. It would be a extremely bloody back and forth that would last for years.
You make these statements with such certainty. Are you a military analyst with years of experience in the region including boots on the ground knowledge or did you stay at a Holiday Inn?
Are we to send in Yoko Ono?
"That's assuming, as you do, that democratization will not put in power the very jihadis we are fighting against."
If that is their choice, then so be it. In this event, there is no blaming the USA (or Israel)for their actions as a country. The claim that this is just a radical few would be handily dispelled huh?
As a great man once said, lets see them lay their cards on the table.
We don't ALLOW them anything. They decide on their own constitution. Have you read their constitution? Note Article (2)(b) and (c)
Article (2):
1st -- Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source of legislation:
(a) No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam.
(b) No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy.
(c) No law can be passed that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms outlined in this constitution.
2nd -- This constitution guarantees the Islamic identity of the majority of the Iraqi people and the full religious rights for all individuals and the freedom of creed and religious practices.
Article (7):
1st -- Entities or trends that advocate, instigate, justify or propagate racism, terrorism, "takfir" (declaring someone an infidel), sectarian cleansing, are banned, especially the Saddamist Baath Party in Iraq and its symbols, under any name. It will be not be allowed to be part of the multilateral political system in Iraq, which should be defined according to the law.
2nd -- The state will be committing to fighting terrorism in all its forms and will work to prevent its territory from being a base or corridor or an arena for its (terrorism's) activities.
TWO: RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS
PART ONE: RIGHTS
FIRST: Civil and political rights.
Article (14): Iraqis are equal before the law without discrimination because of sex, ethnicity, nationality, origin, color, religion, sect, belief, opinion or social or economic status.
The recently approved Iraqi constitution is a remarkable document. As someone who has lived 5 years in Saudi Arabia and two in Iran, this constitution stands alone in the region (except for Israel) as the most democratic edict ever written. If the Iraqis abide by it, there will be no terrorism against America.
Don't worry.
there is one and only one dirty word in the world, and that is Islam.
Tomas won't ever be happy with the Iraqi Constitution as it stands.
Guess that means IT'S A GOOD THING!!
:-)
HOOOAH!!
Bing West put it best
"The Sunnis have no repentance," said Bing West, author of "No True Glory: a Frontline Account of the Battle for Fallujah," on Oct. 7 at the Heritage Foundation. "They believe if we left, they would be ruling the Shiites in three months." Having been in charge for 700 years, Sunnis may be correct in believing that and, in any event, have a hard time believing their centuries' long run is over.
http://washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20051018-092724-3489r.htm
If you notice in Article 2, there are two other conditions that must be met equally in addition to Islam, i.e., (b) No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy and (c) No law can be passed that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms outlined in this constitution.
Of course, if the Shia ignore the provisions of the constitution, which has been approved by 78% of the people and a higher percentage of Shia, then all bets are off. They can't veto the constitution. They can amend it or abolish it.
What if the Shiite Iraqi PM (60 percent of Iraq is Shiite) does as he has promised and establishes Sharia Law?
a) No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam.
(b) No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy.
(c) No law can be passed that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms outlined in this constitution.
Article (13):
1st -- This constitution shall be considered as the supreme and highest law in Iraq. It shall be binding throughout the whole country without exceptions.
2nd -- No law that contradicts this constitution shall be passed; any passage in the regional constitutions and any other legal passages that contradict this constitution shall be considered null.
If the Constitution has any meaning, then the rights and basic freedoms outlined in the document prevail if there are any conflicts with Sharia Law.
Article (14): Iraqis are equal before the law without discrimination because of sex... .?
...ethnicity, nationality, origin, color, religion, sect, belief, opinion or social or economic status.
What's the question? The constitution protects the rights of women. In fact, it [Articel 151] states that, "A proportion of no less than 25 percent of the seats in the Council of Representatives [Legislature] is specified for the participation of women.
Based on your questions I don't think you have read the Constitution. You don't seem to appreciate the significance of its adoption, which required close to 9 million Iraqis to brave the threat of death or injury in order to vote. They seem to believe that it is an important document that has some meaning and influence for their future.
I believe in giving freedom to the people - but it must be real freedom, not Islam, at least IMO, Real freedom does not exist under Islam.
Without knowing your definition of real freedom, I can only respond by saying that countries like Indonesia (the world's largest Muslim country), Malaysia, and Turkey are democracies, however imperfect. Tunisia is fairly democratic having emerged from the days of Habib BOURGUIBA's one-party state. The Islamic fundamentalist party is outlawed.
>If that is their choice, then so be it. In this event, there is no blaming the USA (or Israel)for their actions as a country. The claim that this is just a radical few would be handily dispelled huh?
That's one hell of a statement to make when US soldiers will have died to ennable jihadis.
And that claim about a radical few is just a claim, a propagandistic attempt to minimise the threat of jihad to the great unwashed. It was laughable then and it's still now. Anybody with a knowledge of say, Egypt and the history ofthe Muslim Brotherhood throughout the Arab world, and even the Algerian elections in 1992 demostrate the utter absurdity of that fallacy put out by the USG.
Once they get to a point that they can run their own country, perhaps they can establish 3 provinces with a federal government to arbitrate disputes.
Kind of like what our Founding Fathers had in mind.
Either way, I think the Kurds will eventually break away and set up their own Democracy.
"That's one hell of a statement to make when US soldiers will have died to ennable jihadis."
Soldiers have died to remove obstacles that stood in the way of people making their own choices. If Jihad is their joice then, indeed, so be it, but they should be aware of the consequences of their choices. In this statement you only address ONE choice made by one section of people. Using a bit of a broad brush there aren't you? That is political ideological spin there my my friend.
You attempt to chose FOR them, and that is where you go so wrong. They must be able to chose their own path so that they may be held accountable for the choices they do make.
THINK for a second and apply some common sense. There are around 25 MILLION people in Iraq. If the overwhelming majority of them were chosing JIHAD how is it that only around 1700 soldiers have died in combat? I mean think for a minute about that, the majority of 25 million against 130 thousand?????? See, it doesnt fit. Your broad brush lacks paint to make an accurate stroke.
Ok claim it DOES fit and it really is a majority of 25 million against 130 thousand, Doesn't seem like a very successful or growing 'insurgency' does it? This angle would support the AWESOME job the US military is doing there. Indeed, no matter HOW you look at it, when you see the forrest thru the trees they are succeeding in their efforts and rather than bag on them all the time you ought to be thanking them and commending them.
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