Posted on 11/22/2005 12:44:07 PM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo
If you want, it isn't mine
PH -- This is slightly better wording than the current content for cell A10 of your "Evolution Troll's Toolkit."
You demonstrate an inability to mount a cogent rebuttal.
Try reading a few recent histories of Galileo.
I have read more than "a few".
I've also read the apologetics you cling to as source material. Unfortunately, they fly in the face of the actual documents written at the time of Galileo's trial, by the actual participants:
Galileo was 100% right, the Church was 100% wrong -- both in the facts, and in their decision to treat as "crimes" all of the things they accused Galileo of. No matter how hard you try, you can't put lipstick on that pig and make it pretty.Papal condemnation/sentencing of Galileo: "Whereas you, Galileo, son of the late Vaincenzo Galilei, Florentine, aged seventy years, were in the year 1615 denounced to this Holy Office for holding as true the false doctrine taught by some that the Sun is the center of the world and immovable and that the Earth moves, and also with a diurnal motion; for having disciples to whom you taught the same doctrine; for holding correspondence with certain mathematicians of Germany concerning the same; for having printed certain letters, entitled "On the Sunspots," wherein you developed the same doctrine as true; and for replying to the objections from the Holy Scriptures, which from time to time were urged against it [i.e. for disagreeing with Bible-based criticisms - Ich.] [...] This Holy Tribunal being therefore of intention to proceed against the disorder and mischief thence resulting, which went on increasing to the prejudice of the Holy Faith, [...] The proposition that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from its place is absurd and false philosophically and formally heretical, because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scripture. [...] The proposition that the Earth is not the center of the world and immovable but that it moves, and also with a diurnal motion, is equally absurd and false philosophically and theologically considered at least erroneous in faith. [...] Furthermore, in order to completely eliminate such a pernicious doctrine, and not let it creep any further to the great detriment of Catholic truth, the Holy Congregation of the Index issued a decree which prohibited books which treat of this and declaring the doctrine itself to be false and wholly contrary to the divine and Holy Scripture. [...] Likewise, you confessed that in several places the exposition of the said book is expressed in such a way that a reader could get the idea that the arguments given for the false side were effective enough to be capable of convincing, rather than being easy to refute. [...] We say, pronounce, sentence and declare that you, Galileo, by reason of these things which have been detailed in the trial and which you have confessed already, have rendered yourself according to this Holy Office vehemently suspect of heresy, namely of having held and believed a doctrine that is false and contrary to the divine and Holy Scripture: namely that Sun is the center of the world and does not move from east to west, and that one may hold and defend as probable an opinion after it has been declared and defined contrary to Holy Scripture. [...] Consequently, you have incurred all the censures and penalties enjoined and promulgated by the sacred Canons and all particular and general laws against such delinquents. [This includes torture - Ich.]
Under threat of conviction, Galileo publicly renounced his "false" doctrine that the Earth revolves around the Sun: "I, Galileo Galilei, son of the late Vincenzo Galilei, Florentine, aged seventy years, arraigned personally before this tribunal, and kneeling before you [...] I wrote and printed a book in which I discussed this doctrine already condemned, and adduced arguments of great cogency in its favor [horrors! - Ich.], without presenting any solution of these [i.e., without reconciling it with the Church's interpretation of Scripture -- Ich.]; and for this cause I have been pronounced by the Holy Office to be vehemently suspected of heresy, that is to say, of having held and believed that the sun is the center of the world and immovable, and that the earth is not the center and moves. [...] with sincere heart and unfeigned faith I abjure, curse, and detest the aforesaid errors and heresies, and generally every other error and sect whatsoever contrary to the said Holy Church; and I swear that in the future I will never again say or assert, verbally or in writing, anything that might furnish occasion for a similar suspicion regarding me"
-- Galileo's forced recantation, June 27, 1633
Even if as you laughably claim, the "real" beef was that Galileo couldn't "prove" his theory, THAT IN NO WAY EXCUSES ANY OF THE PERSECUTION OF GALILEO. The Church did not then, and does not now, have the moral right to persecute and imprison anyone for stating the results of his examinations of the evidence, whether he can "prove" it or not. The Church did not then, and does not now, have the moral right to persecute and imprison anyone for holding a position contrary to what scripture appears to state. The Church did not then, and does not now, have the moral right to persecute and imprison anyone for making an argument that might cause someone to question their religion.
The Church was dead wrong. There's no getting around that. And history has vindicated Galileo -- and his methods -- 100%.
I find it reprehensible that in this day and age, anyone would try to make any excuses for the persecution of Galileo -- or fail to learn from it. But even today we have countless numbers of people who insist upon placing their guesses about what scripture might be trying to tell them, over what people have learned through careful examination of the reality of Creation itself -- and still insist upon vilifying those who do.
No, not to real science, only to Darwin Worship.
And not to *real* science, only to the "false doctrine taught by some that the Sun is the center of the world and immovable and that the Earth moves"...
Evolutionary biology *is* real science. You can't pick and choose. Not if you want to be intellectually honest, that is.
The sad part is, no matter how you try to satirize the AECreationists, it's hard to keep up.
you have made a fool of yourself.
It's not the first time.Check this out
"Speciation is never observed."
Reply: This is not true. Do you know about squirrels on the north side of the Grand Canyon becoming different from those on the south side?
Evolution does explain why all mammals utilize the Krebs cycle, as Ichumenon has thoroughly posted. Evolution does explain why mammal fetuses undergo very similar development stages in utero. Evolution does explain why, for example, the cat family have unique characteristics (e.g., the retractable claw). Evolution does explain why apes and humans have similar blood types.
If an 'intelligent designer' with omnipotence used the same design over and over and over again, this is a poverty of imaginative design.
Evolution fits with understandings from astronomy, physics, chemistry, geology, archeology. It strains credulity that a book from 2000 years ago--involving a talking snake--has any truth that we humans don't have today.
I mean, snakes don't even pronounce Aramaic very well.
Our worldviews are too different, in many cases, for meaningful discussion.
Do you have a single piece of scientific evidence for what you call the "creative, transformative role of intelligence in the development of life forms"?
Darwinists have become an embarrassment to thinking people.
I hope you don't number yourself among the latter.
Excuse me - are you an Administrator? What gives you the right to ask me to stop posting my sincerely held beliefs? Did someone suspend the First Amendment on this thread? You believe I am posting "lies" - defined as saying one thing when I know that it is untrue. But that is not the case. Because I refuse to accept the "partyline" of Darwinism and evolution does not make me a "liar" and you a "truth teller. " This has to be one of the most arrogant postings I have ever read on FreeRepublic. Your claims that ID is wrong, and evolution is true is an expression of your sincerely held beliefs. And I respect that...and I would never "ask" you to do otherwise.
I am neither a dolt, nor an idiot. I am not a koolaid drinker. I have a graduate degree - the field is immaterial, the discipline of achieving said degree indicates some level of intellectual activity beyond whatever level you believe Creationists can't rise above.
It would appear, as usual, noone is going to convince anyone else. But a little respect would be appreciated.
Yeah, I read his book.
Right, but I wanted to keep all the items short, so the cells stayed at one line each.
For those who want to know where the troll is getting his material, it's the Evolution Troll's Toolkit.
It would surprise me in no way if you put your 'faith' in one of them.
Evolution makes a house of cards look like an earthquake shelter.
Baby, goodbye doesn't mean forever.
Personally, I'd love to see a little more respect on these threads but I keep getting caught between Darwin-idolator and evo-nazi. :\
Excuse me - are you an Administrator?
Not the last time I checked.
What gives you the right to ask me to stop posting my sincerely held beliefs?
Try reading my post again, this time for comprehension. "Your beliefs" is not what I asked you to stop posting.
Did someone suspend the First Amendment on this thread?
No, which is why I'm free to ask you to stop posting fabrications.
You believe I am posting "lies" - defined as saying one thing when I know that it is untrue. But that is not the case.
So you actually *did* poll "these same clergy" who signed the letter? Do tell.
Because I refuse to accept the "partyline" of Darwinism and evolution does not make me a "liar" and you a "truth teller. "
Nor did I say that it did.
This has to be one of the most arrogant postings I have ever read on FreeRepublic.
You mean it's more arrogant than the guy who claimed that he knew what "these same clergy" actually believed on other subjects which weren't mentioned in the letter, in a cheap attempt to dismiss their opinions by making false ad hominems against them?
Your claims that ID is wrong, and evolution is true is an expression of your sincerely held beliefs. And I respect that...and I would never "ask" you to do otherwise.
Nor would I.
Respect must be earned. When are you going to admit your error in posting this:
"Darwin influenced Das Kapital published in 1867 by Marx."
It appeared in post 23 of another thread, right here.
David Gates, is that you?
Your "argument" makes Barbra Streisand look like Oscar Wilde.
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