Posted on 11/30/2005 8:27:51 AM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks
WESLACO, Texas - With federal funding for the I-69 superhighway from the Texas-Mexico border to Canada dead for now, Texas and other states are looking for another route to fund the corridor, a state transportation official said Tuesday.
Mario Jorge of the Texas Department of Transportation sought to allay the concerns of the Rio Grande Valley Mobility Task Force, a group of elected officials and business leaders who lobby for funding for the highway - raised when Texas Transportation Commissioner Ted Houghton said recently that "I-69 is dead in the state of Texas. The road fairy has been shot."
"Yeah, we do not have the federal dollars to build the 69 corridor in its entirety," Jorge said. "From the Texas standpoint, we're proceeding as we have been."
Jorge said that Gov. Rick Perry's 2002 proposal for a 4,000-mile network of tollroads whose $175 billion price tag would be covered by private money was one alternative. Other states along the 1,600-mile route would have to find funding for their portions as well.
Some have protested the idea of the trans-Texas corridor, fearing farmers and ranchers along the route would be forced to sell their land.
Deep South Texas leaders say it is shameful a region with more than a million people and a burgeoning post-NAFTA economy does not have nearby access to an interstate freeway. They have been incensed since Houghton's comment, made at a luncheon on Nov. 8, alerted them that the funding had dried up.
"The project is not dead and it should not be because it's important to the border," state Rep. Juan Escobar, D-Kingsville, said Tuesday.
(Excerpt) Read more at dfw.com ...
From Texas Agriculture
TFB Resolutions Committee completes work
"While remaining steadfast in its opposition to the Trans Texas Corridor, one resolution called for reforms that address landowner access to, and compensation for, property divided by the corridor. Another notable proposal said that all existing toll-free roads in Texas should remain toll free.
"State eminent domain legislation was passed by the Texas Legislature and signed into law by Governor Rick Perry in September. A TFB resolution goes a step farther, calling for a state constitutional amendment to make it permanent."
Trans-Texas Corridor PING!
$5,000 toll booth on the Tex/Mex border with no off ramps until you get to Canada should do it.
I love Texan politicians.
We can use it to fund the Great Wall of Texas, and throw in a minefied as a bonus.
Perry has probably killed his chances for re-election because of his support for this abomination.
Dallas North Tollway has been looting drivers for decades and the pols just can't seem to give up these "freebies" to fund their pet projects.
Yup, the only way to get toll roads built is to kill the free roads. Texas can expect that their economic growth will stagnate, as free roads become clogged, and toll roads dampen travel and thus economic activity.
Just like in France.
BTTT
DING! We have a winner!
"I-69"?
I could see college co-eds across the nation wearing this on a tight T-shirt.
Sorry, mind in gutter!
Easy, sell I-69 T-shirts and roadsigns...
LOL. Great minds think alike.
So you are demanding that the Feds pay 80% of the cost of building I-69? Because that is the funding that he talks about when he says "The road fairy(80-90% fed funding) has been shot."
The hottest area of Dallas for growth has been far North Dallas and Frisco, served by only one freeway-style road, the North Dallas TOLLWAY. So your theory of toll roads reducing economic activity is false. In fact it is quite the opposite, because the toll funding allows the roads to be built years or even decades before they could have been built using traditional gov't financing.
If the Dallas North Tollway receipts hadn't been used to fund other Dallas area toll projects, either the George Bush Turnpike would not have been built, or taxes would have had to be raised to pay for it. Which would you prefer?
I'm demanding that the people who drive on the highways of texas pay for them in the normal way, taxes.
The only real funding difference between a toll road and a "freeway" is the method of collecting the money. And collecting the money at the highway has proven detrimental to an economy.
Looking at a Dallas map, it doesn't look like there's been any roadway growth since I lived there 20+ years ago. I know when I flew over my old hood north of Plano a few years ago that there had been no noticeable housing growth, undoubtedly due to the fact that Dallas hasn't built many major roads in years, and they were jammed back then. It doesn't look like the North Dallas Tollroad is any longer than it was back then either.
Contrast that with Phoenix, where I lived in the late 70's, and then had almost no freeways. Not even I10 was completed through the city. Since then they've added vastly to their freeway system, particularly in the last few years, and growth has been outstanding. There are NO tollroads, and we don't want any.
Contrast that with Oklahoma City, that added toll roads in the hottest growing side of town. Yes, it's still growing up there, but not necessarily around the toll road, which doesn't carry much traffic. There's more traffic on the free service roads than the toll road. On the other hand, a two lane road in the 70's from Edmond to OKC is now a 6 and in some places, 8 lane freeway, and is crammed with traffic, unlike the toll road. THAT's where the growth is centered, around the free roads.
If Texas wants to take a page from France and lace itself with toll roads, fine. That will be the end of economic growth in that state, just like France. Granted, France has other problems, but it's wonderful toll roads have not helped it grow.
The Dallas area has only doubled in size by adding 3 million people in the last 20 years, with the largest percentage of growth to the north.
Maybe when you look you fail to see.
The George Bush Turnpike takes its own tolls. I don't think Dallas has any problem getting loans to fund new highways until they can take tolls to pay it off.
Let's do a little research and see where all those tolls go. I'll have to bet they don't all get used on roads. Besides....they take road fees out of each and every auto registration we pay for.
They were built by the same agency, the North Texas Tollway Authority. Tolls from the NDT helped pay for construction of the GWB, and tolls from both will help pay for all the extensions to each and probably the toll road to be built southwest from downtown Ft. Worth. Once the 121 mainlane construction is finally approved for tollroad construction, they'll fund that, too. I'm not certain that 100% of the NTTA receipts are reinvested in roads, but am willing to bet that that is the case. As for the state gas tax, IIRC 30% is diverted to education, with the rest going for road projects. However that now barely covers the maintenance costs, because while project costs rise with inflation, the gas tax stays a constant amount, and the percentage of road construction costs paid for by federal dollars has decreased.
Here's their website:
http://www.ntta.org/pub/servlet/pubfrontpage
I'm not affiliated with them, but did look into toll roads a few years ago when I was adamently against toll roads(hated the Pennsy and Jersey turnpikes.) Now that I've read up and seen the math, I'm all for most of them, it is the only way to speed up road construction without raising taxes. The state can only issue so many bonds, but they can issue more if there is future toll income to pledge. And if a private company builds and finances them, then they(and their investors) take on the risk.
I looked at Dallas, and they've averaged around 30% growth in the last 3 decades.
Then I looked at Phoenix, and they've averaged around 45% growth in the last 3 decades.
Dallas has tollways. Phoenix doesn't.
I'm not about to attempt any real analysis, but I'd bet money that the increased growth of freeways vs. stagnant growth of toll ways would more than pay for additional roads.
By definition, the people pay for the roads either way. The only difference is where the money is collected. You can argue that taxes take disproportionately from one group or another for roads. But no one, NO ONE, is not benefited by good roads. Even those without a car benefit by cheaper goods and better jobs provided by good roads.
My hatred of toll roads is anecdotal. I saw how the center median of the California 91 freeway was sold to a private developer for a toll road, so the government could collect taxes from it. The people refused to use it in the numbers that would prevent the free lanes of the 91 from becoming jammed, and the government was forced to buy it back.
I've seen the total non-development along the turnpikes of Oklahoma that have been in place up to 50 years. In comparison Oklahoma freeways have wall to wall development.
Drive the Will Rogers turnpike to the state border where it turns into freeway. Note the desolation along the turnpike, vs instant capitalism at the freeway start.
I don't know where you got your numbers from, but I do know that there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. I don't believe your numbers, based on what I've observed in many different parts of the country over the last 50 years.
Education? Guess what the STATE LOTTERY was approved for? Do you think that's where the profits go? *chuckle*
I'm not certain that 100% of the NTTA receipts are reinvested in roads, but am willing to bet that that is the case.
I'll bet your wrong. No pol has ever let a good tax pass him/her by ....without dipping their fingers in the till.
However that now barely covers the maintenance costs, because while project costs rise with inflation, the gas tax stays a constant amount, and the percentage of road construction costs paid for by federal dollars has decreased.
That's not true in the way you are projecting it. Where in your stats does the auto registration fees for road tax figure in? Just Dallas alone would be paying 3+mil x 8 bucks or more each. (not counting most people have more than one vehicle per household) That's quite a chunk of change to fill in pot holes.
How about we quit sending the tax money to DC? Let's just collect the tax and funnel 100% of it directly to TexDOT.
Oh wait, the fed's could not threaten us with witholding funds in order to enforce b.s. laws.
Perhaps it is time...
And a town of 10 that adds 10 people in a decade has a 100% growth rate.
DFW added 1.2 million 1990-2000 (latest census count), Phoenix added 1 million.
http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t3/tab01.txt
Neither's growth was influenced much by whether or not some of their roads were tollways. Oklahoma's minimal growth compared to Dallas and Phoenix has little to do with tollways. I would recommend you a basic textbook on Economic Development 101.
As to the Riverside to Orange County tollway, it was never intended to eliminate congestion from the free lanes. With nearly 300,000 cars a day using that route (and growing) it is impossible to build enough free lanes to move rush hour at 55mph. The toll lanes were just a way to build more lanes sooner, and to offer a paid option of faster speeds. Since there isn't enough room for enough lanes for everyone, those willing to pay for it get the option of a 55mph bypass (the toll lanes.) As more people try to use it and the speed goes down, the price goes up until the speeds are back to 55 mph. When capacity is finite, capitalism controls it through personal choices. Tollways are pure capitalism when there are free(but slower) alternatives.
The government bought the road back because of a no-compete clause that prevented them from adding lanes or new interchanges to the 91 freeway.
In the category of lies, damn lies, and statistics:
Your link claims that Dallas added 1,184,519 people. How'd you get 1.2 million out of that? A bit of a rounding error perhaps?
Your link claims a 29.2% growth for Dallas, 45.3% for Phoenix. With even more freeways under construction in Phoenix, and freeways less than 10 years old already scheduled for widening, my bet is on Phoenix to kick Dallas' @ss in a very short period of time. Probably less than 10 years.
As to the Riverside to Orange County tollway, it was never intended to eliminate congestion from the free lanes.
Of course not. What fool would pay money to drive just as fast as the free lanes? The very business model of the toll roads rely on the fact that free lanes will be kept jammed. Toll road developers depend on government to ensure jammed free roads, and will lobby to make it happen (an easy choice for the politician, simply do nothing and claim impotence). Jammed free roads stifle economic development, which brings in less tax money, and makes free roads even harder to build.
That's economics 101.
With nearly 300,000 cars a day using that route (and growing) it is impossible to build enough free lanes to move rush hour at 55mph.
This is America. Nothing is impossible. Buy up the houses in Anaheim Hills and build 1000 lanes of freeway. Seriously, at some point the ratio of roadway vs. living space reaches a point where no roadway will ever be full. The fact that politicians, no doubt receiving money from toll road developers whine "the road fairy is dead", and that's the end of it unless the people educate themselves and demand decent roads.
Tollways are pure capitalism when there are free(but slower) alternatives.
Capitalism is best served when people have as few obstacles and costs as possible to travel to places of business. Paying tolls discourages travel, and ALL travel operates the economy, even if you just buy gas.
That's economics 101.
The libertarian model of private roads will stifle economic growth. Roads are natural monopolies, because there is no real way for two companies to compete. Should two companies build parallel toll roads, they will compete to the point that one goes out of business, the other will buy the bankrupt roadway, and proceed to charge anything they want. This will necessitate government regulation (while the libertarians THOUGHT private roadways would end government participation in roads - LOL). Government toll road regulation will provide opportunities for corruption, as is now the case in electric utilities and others.
Toll Roads are bad medicine.
Which toll road developer do you work for?
And why did they want to add lanes? Because the free roadway was jammed. The free roadway was jammed because the toll lanes did not carry as many vehicles as they would had they been free. The extra cars that free lanes would have carried would have relieved at least some of the congestion on the rest of the freeway.
Same as in Jew Jersey, where the government got smart and eliminated HOV lanes, because they recognized that relieving the whole freeway actually did more good environmentally than the vain attempt to compel people to carpool.
I am actually doing work on this project. Here is the status web site for more info:
http://www.i69info.com/state.html
bump
What do you propose to fund the needed roads, which appear to be too expensive to fund with the present gas tax (Texas: $0.20; Federal: 0.92 x $0.20 gasoline/$0.24 diesel)? I would personally accept an increase in the gas tax, but I suspect it would be self-defeating if it had to be raised 1.00/gallon or some such. People would look for every excuse not to drive.
Same way Arizona funds roads. Not that I know how they do that. I only know that there is zero talk of toll roads, because the last time they proposed such a thing for the Red Mountain fwy out Mesa way there was much wailing and knashing of teeth.
Assuming you built identical toll and free roads, except for toll equipment, there's no reason they should cost any different as long as the government roads didn't have too many idiotic construction rules. Perhaps some difference because free roads will have more off-ramps, but all of those should pay for themselves with tax money from businesses built right there. Toll roads would have additional expense from toll collection machinery and billing, and because they carry less traffic, they could actually cost more for the drivers per mile than higher density free roads.
Building roads from tax money does allow moving the cost disproportionately from one group to another, but that just means that someone must ride herd on the politicians to prevent corruption.
Another issue, if roads are built in Texas from gas and vehicle taxes, when you drive toll roads you're paying for the free roads AND the toll road. Bend over, here it comes.
What do you propose to fund the needed roads, which appear to be too expensive to fund with the present gas tax (Texas: $0.20; Federal: 0.92 x $0.20 gasoline/$0.24 diesel)?
How about South Texas build a highway that links up with an existing interstate???
I think it should be privatized and competition allowed.
Yes---But he,s got a better enterprise already in the making.He,ll take a fat cat position with this contractor Cintra Zachary who'll build and maintain this toll road and reap much revenue.He's already got his man in position,Mario Jorge!!!
Yes---But he,s got a better enterprise already in the making.He,ll take a fat cat position with this contractor Cintra Zachary who'll build and maintain this toll road and reap much revenue.He's already got his man in position,Mario Jorge!!!
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