Posted on 12/12/2005 8:01:43 AM PST by PatrickHenry
You need to introduce that word if you want to break out of the junk science category. You have a vernacular theory, "Life is organized in such a way that it must have been designed by an intelligent designer." You need to do at least the following to gain credibility as science:
And IDers think they can be accepted as science without even having done as much hard research and testing as those working on CF?
"That organized matter behaving according to predicatable laws will be found."
And as I've said, it has been found, but doesn't necessarily have anything to do with ID. The statement does not even require ID in order to be true.
OK; that makes more sense.
You have an assumption in the back of your mind when you state "organized matter that behaves according to predicatable laws." The assumption is of a designer. You need to put the designer into the statement, otherwise you've just said "The sky is blue today" well, duh, of course it is (where I am).
Once you've done that part, it is you, the proponent, who needs to design your test, conduct it and publish it so we can try to reproduce it.
Eh? The courts, a purely defensive militia, and the police are the only functional arms of government libertarians support. I guess George Washington also needs that same reality check.
"The formation of oil deposits (whether it happened according to orthodox theory, Thomas Gold's deep-hydrocarbon theory, or some other mechanism) occurs over a similarly long time scale, but it would be preposterous to assert that understanding it has little to do with day-to-day human experience (at least, if you live in a society that runs on oil and therefore needs people who can figure out where it is likely to be found)."
You interjected a new word, "understanding". My point was that speciation is a slow process and not (often) relevant on human time scales. Influenza is one exception...
By the way, another point to be made that relates to a lot of posts on this thread is that many feel that intelligence has caused the normal evolutionary process to be altered in people. For example, modern medicine has removed the selection pressure from diseases like diabetes. This phenomenon is not limited to humans, for instance chimpanzees have removed selection pressures by learned behaviors like using tools to harvest termites.
It's ironic that the first real cases of "intelligent design" are happening in modern times, as genetic engineering becomes possible. Evolution won't apply to humankind going forward as much as engineering will, IMO. Then there's the coming fusion of man and machine...interesting times without a doubt. ;-)
The word "necessarily" being key. I haven't said anything about "necessity" or even proofs. I am only stating what constitutes a reasonable theory based on the definition usally posted by evos. Intelligent design involves the organization of matter that behaves under predictable laws. The presence of such matter is ubiquitous. Therefore to infer intelligent design as present and operative throughout the universe is to indulge a reasonable explanation, or theory.
You seem awfully ignorant. Read some of Einstein's writings for instance. There are many famous, respected scientists who are deeply religious. However, science by definition does not address "God" or the "supernatural", at least as long as they are claimed to have traits and capabilities that transcend the physical world.
Science has not made, nor does it seem likely to make, any pronouncements about what existed before the Big Bang, or what caused the Universe to have its particular laws and composition. So, the explanations that "God created the Universe", "the Universe suddenly appeared randomly from nowhere", and "the Universe was created when an extra-universal garbage collector accidentally collected too much garbage and it imploded" are all equally plausible and likely from a strictly scientific standpoint. Science is willing to concede that the unknowable is the province of religion...it seems to be taking quite some time for religion to admit the counterpoint, that the knowable is the province of science.
I think ID should only be taught in science class if Flying Spaghetti Monsterism is given equal time, and the reason why is fully explained.
They must have possessed the same time machine that allowed Darwin to get all his ideas from Haeckel's drawings (which apparently happened according to a frequent creationist poster here)
So can other things. You need to nail it down to ID being the cause, otherwise you're just making obvious general statements.
Therefore to infer intelligent design as present and operative throughout the universe is to indulge a reasonable explanation, or theory.
Only in the vernacular definition of theory, as in your personal guess or belief. I can respect the statement in that category, but not as science.
Classic projection.
Pete apparently believes that he'd lose his moral sense and turn into an insensate psychopath or perhaps some kind of despairing nihilist if he weren't a Christian. Let's all hope for his sake and/or ours that he doesn't get a crisis of faith.
Heathen infidel blasphemer! Everybody knows the Invisible Pink Unicorn (PBUHH) created the universe. Reject your pagan pasta god or be cleaning out Her stables for eternity!
I have yet another theory. It is that the entire universe is a construct of my over-wrought imagination. Someone asked what my theory predicts, and I said, "That organized matter behaving according to predicatable [sic] laws will be found."
An interesting wager and I'm not entirely sure about how to proceed as I'm unclear about the nature of the interrogation. Ethics is rather a complex of many elements, and your scenario will require more details before it can get a good answer. Some things that are missing are, kinds of virute, and kinds of consequences. Also, the nature of temporality and eternity will have to be settled. Does your question assume that there is nothing eternal?
Heretic! You will be forever boiled in a giant vat of the holy garlic-pepper-sausage sauce!
(It's my personal favorite.) :^)
Of course, Galileo produced some pretty convincing evidence that the moons of Jupiter orbited Jupiter. This upset the assumption that everything orbited the earth.
One of the main differences between Galileo and Copernicus.
Evidence.
Ah, so it is. Obviously, my theory is correct.
Of course, what's missing from all this is an explanation of how and why that particular prediction is a necessary consequence of my cat-creation theory being correct. In the case of the Big Bang, the theory was that the universe expanded in such-and-such a way. Well, the prediction from that specific event was that there should be some leftover radiation as a consequence of the specific mechanism by which the universe expanded. Notice that there is some sort of logical connection between the theory and the prediction - the prediction is not a complete non sequitur in relation to the theory. Asserting that Big Bang theory predicts that my dryer will have lint in it doesn't work, because there's no reason to accept that dryer lint is a necessary consequence of the Big Bang.
Or if you think it is a necessary consequence, it's incumbent upon you to explain how and why that consequence necessarily results from your theory - simply asserting that it does is meaningless. Ya gotta put some chips on the table if you want to play the game.
zero-sum fallacy
No more than evos need to nail down some other cause. The theory of evolutioon is a general statement supporting the evidence at hand. It makes "obvious general statements" in view of the givens with which its proponents operate.
Assume for a moment that death is akin to snuffing out a candle - once your bodily functions cease, you are no more. Will you behave yourself prior to that event, or not?
Please enumerate the activities science can engage without the presence of intelligence, design, or any combination of the two.
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