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Evolution's Thermodynamic Failure
The American Spectator ^ | December 28, 2005 | Granville Sewell

Posted on 12/28/2005 3:01:53 PM PST by johnnyb_61820

... the idea that the four fundamental forces of physics alone could rearrange the fundamental particles of nature into spaceships, nuclear power plants, and computers, connected to laser printers, CRTs, keyboards and the Internet, appears to violate the second law of thermodynamics in a spectacular way.

Anyone who has made such an argument is familiar with the standard reply: the Earth is an open system, it receives energy from the sun, and order can increase in an open system, as long as it is "compensated" somehow by a comparable or greater decrease outside the system. S. Angrist and L. Hepler, for example, in "Order and Chaos", write, "In a certain sense the development of civilization may appear contradictory to the second law.... Even though society can effect local reductions in entropy, the general and universal trend of entropy increase easily swamps the anomalous but important efforts of civilized man. Each localized, man-made or machine-made entropy decrease is accompanied by a greater increase in entropy of the surroundings, thereby maintaining the required increase in total entropy."

According to this reasoning, then, the second law does not prevent scrap metal from reorganizing itself into a computer in one room, as long as two computers in the next room are rusting into scrap metal -- and the door is open. In Appendix D of my new book, The Numerical Solution of Ordinary and Partial Differential Equations, second edition, I take a closer look at the equation for entropy change, which applies not only to thermal entropy but also to the entropy associated with anything else that diffuses, and show that it does not simply say that order cannot increase in a closed system. It also says that in an open system, order cannot increase faster than it is imported through the boundary. ...

(Excerpt) Read more at spectator.org ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: creation; crevolist; evolution; intelligentdesign; law; mathematics; physics; scientificidiocy; thermodynamics; twaddle
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To: numberonepal
Certainly a few seconds before and after the Big Bang the laws of phisics themselves were a bit different than what we assume today.

That is due to the energy regime involved; and for that matter, it is irrelevant as a practical matter to the biological underpinnings of ToE.

...oh, and either spellcheck is your friend, or you need to send your manuscript though the round of 10,000 monkeys again..

Cheers!

981 posted on 12/30/2005 11:13:09 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Coyoteman
That's how I do these threads...

...and Cats was pretty good tonight, too.

G'night!

982 posted on 12/30/2005 11:17:33 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: editor-surveyor
Touche editor-surveyor except I would say your realm of experience is beyond and outside of his, not to mention closer to truth and reality.

Wolf
983 posted on 12/30/2005 11:44:10 PM PST by RunningWolf (Vet US Army Air Cav 1975)
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To: Dan(9698)
That is why they dismiss the idea of intellegent design out of hand and call anyone who even reads about it a heretic.

Please give an example of this.

984 posted on 12/30/2005 11:46:15 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: Dan(9698)
Neuton's theory also has only been revised since he is dead and can't defend himself.

What is there to defend?

Newton's laws of motion and gravity are true unless you're dealing with very high speeds or very large masses. Einstein's equations agree with Newton's for all "practical" purposes.

The real reason Newton's theory is no longer considered totally accurate is that experiments and measurements of natural phenomena more closely agree with Einstein than Newton. EG, the motion of Mercury.

985 posted on 12/30/2005 11:55:17 PM PST by Virginia-American
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To: Charles H. (The_r0nin)
//There is no "law" of gravity.//

I agree. All of these theories and laws are only our approximations (in the subset of the measurable pieces) of the phenomena that we can measure.

So scientists should give up their arrogance, and quit insisting that their current models are factual true and real.

Does this mean throw science out the window?? NO.

Ancient man made advances on what we now ridicule, and a hundred years from now the current theories will look equally silly.

None of our theories will ever approach what truly is, and yet somehow we will make advance on/or with them.

And once again HE will be hidden beyond 'the evidence'

Wolf
986 posted on 12/31/2005 12:03:16 AM PST by RunningWolf (Vet US Army Air Cav 1975)
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To: tortoise
The machine and the algorithm and the data are not distinct things in the theoretical abstract. Humans create the distinction as an engineering convenience based on how we fabricate computers in practice.

Low pressure in space aside, haven't you noticed how...well, material the universe tends to be?

In other words, if biochemicals are computing machines, then you might want to treat the possibility that for that case too, as well as for silicon, the machine, the algorithm, and the data are distinct things as well.

Cheers!

987 posted on 12/31/2005 12:05:15 AM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: furball4paws
If Lamarck was alive and well, we wouldn't have to protect our kids from sharp objects, electrical outlets and toxic cleaning materials.

Nor would Jewish men still need to be circumcised...
This has been happening for something like 4000 years..

988 posted on 12/31/2005 12:06:09 AM PST by Virginia-American
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To: Mark Felton
they would also crap glass pellets...cute.

Collect 'em, save 'em, trade 'em with your friends.

or...
"Your ass is glass" <--- doesn't have the same ring, does it?

Cheers!

989 posted on 12/31/2005 12:07:13 AM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Stultis
I think Siegfried's buddy Roy will tell you that the garden of Eden treatment doesn't work so well with Tigers.

Why, how did Roy treat his tiger that reflected (evoked) memories of Eden? (Eatin', perhaps, but not Eden.)

Cheers!

990 posted on 12/31/2005 12:10:55 AM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: tortoise
Any fool can say something is a load of crap, but someone who knows what they are talking about can easily take apart an invalid mathematical construction -- you can actually prove things in math, unlike science.

Gee, have you read the threads on Gödel? :-)

Cheers!

991 posted on 12/31/2005 12:18:22 AM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: 4Liberty
because there never can be "definitive proof" of a prime mover or organizer of all life/matter.

Or of anything else.

But what would I know? I am a solipcist.

So why am I posting? ;-)

992 posted on 12/31/2005 12:19:55 AM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: grey_whiskers

Solipcism: There is only one existent being.

Why not go further than that?

There is no existent being.


993 posted on 12/31/2005 12:23:47 AM PST by Allan
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To: ImaGraftedBranch
It shows a tremendous weakness when they forcefully prevent anything contrary to their worldview from being challenged.

Exactly ImaGraftedBranch. If it was so strong all of this from them would not be needed.

What looks like evolution to them really is not evolution.

I am not well read currently. But I have been to the big museums & done much reading at libraries on this subject approx 15 years ago.

And very shortly the evidence for evolution is not. For starters take a look at the skeletal lineups ape ancestor to man.. when you see the skeletons.., it aint there.

Also I have been looking closely at some of the new dino-raptor fossil photos, those look suspect too. I will put my problems with them up here soon.

Wolf
994 posted on 12/31/2005 12:25:06 AM PST by RunningWolf (Vet US Army Air Cav 1975)
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To: bobdsmith
ERVs are not a design feature though.

Source, please? Have you spoken to the designers?

(And while you're at it, how do you know they weren't pulling your leg?)

Cheers!

995 posted on 12/31/2005 12:29:13 AM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Mark Felton
[Note: It is a criteria that life must spontaneously evolve from such homo

Leave Brokeback Mountain out of this!

Cheers!

996 posted on 12/31/2005 12:33:20 AM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: grey_whiskers
In other words, if biochemicals are computing machines, then you might want to treat the possibility that for that case too, as well as for silicon, the machine, the algorithm, and the data are distinct things as well.

Any distinction we make between machine, program, and data is an illusion that serves us reasonably well if we do not look to closely. Much like Newtonian physics. If we are being strictly correct, there is no distinction between any of those terms. And like Newtonian physics, the more precision and correctness we require, the more the illusion fails us.

I have no problem separating machine from program from data when it is convenient, but I am well aware of the fact that the distinction is an artificial construct that works reasonably well in some cases and fails very badly in others. A man has got to know the limits of his models.

997 posted on 12/31/2005 12:33:20 AM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: Stultis
Are you crazy?

I don't think he's crazy, I think you are talking past each other.

The Genesis text about the breeding indicated that the peeled switches by the watering troughs got the animals horny, so they mated.

I never read the passage as indicating that the switches themselves affected the coloration of the offspring.

Try luck, divine providence, or paint.

Cheers!

998 posted on 12/31/2005 12:36:44 AM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: grey_whiskers

999


999 posted on 12/31/2005 12:38:32 AM PST by dread78645 (Sorry Mr. Franklin, We couldn't keep it.)
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To: grey_whiskers
Gee, have you read the threads on Gödel?

Perhaps ironically, Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem, which I assume you are referring to, does not really apply. On one hand, we have those things that we can prove with the current set of axioms. On the other hand, we use those proofs to construct a contrary argument premised on non-axiomatic systems to which the Incompleteness Theorem does not apply.

The non-axiomatic nature is the source of the uncanny robustness of the contrary arguments. They do not assert correctness, which no reasonable person can assert (c.f. the Incompleteness Theorem), they merely assert a hypothesis with the highest probability of correctness which is outside the purview of the limitations of axiomatic systems e.g. Gödel.

If you really want to see something different, look into pervasively non-axiomatic computational systems, which have the unique ability to bypass most of the limitations of conventional computing models on conventional substrates. Premising any argument on axiomatic systems places limits that are not strictly necessary.

1,000 posted on 12/31/2005 12:46:13 AM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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