Skip to comments.ABC-TV DISCOVERS “POPE JOAN”
Posted on 12/29/2005 11:45:43 AM PST by NYer
Tonight, ABCs Primetime will air a segment, On the Trail of Pope Joan, that raises questions about the possible existence of Pope Joan. Catholic League president Bill Donohue weighed in today:
ABC has been busy questioning the divinity of Jesus for years, what with its infamous Search for Jesus specials. In May of this year, it went back to the well again with a 20/20 episode questioning the resurrection of Jesus. Correspondent Elizabeth Vargas told viewers: Whether the resurrection proclaimed by the disciples was physical, metaphysical, or simply a hallucinationthe dreams of grieving followers, is not known. In other words, Christians have likely been duped. And tonight we learn that weve been duped againa woman pope ruled in the ninth century.
Diane Sawyer not only wants us to believe in Pope Joan, she takes us to exact street where she processed. Fact or Fiction she exclaims! Indeed, Sawyer tells us that Pope Joan gave birth while processing. Pope Joan, she says, dressed in male garb, but this is not an historical anomaly: Sawyer shows us a picture of a woman dressed as a soldier in the U.S. Civil War and then proclaims, Which brings us back to Joan. But of course. Another segue could have been little girls dressed up as GI Joe on Halloween, but that might have unsettled the sure-mouthed Sawyer.
Sawyer does not interview either Paul Johnson, the world renowned historian and author of The Papacy, nor does she interview Eamon Duffy, the brilliant historian from Cambridge and author of the magisterial volume, Saints and Sinners: A History of the Popes. Had she done so they would have laughed in her smug face. So who does she rely on? Donna Cross and Mary Malone. Cross wrote a novel about the mythical Pope Joan and has no standing among scholars. Malone is an ex-nun who lost her faith and hates the Catholic Church. I can no longer pray, she said in 1996, because of the language, and because it seemed so essential as the core of the tradition that God be male.
In other words, ABCs gospel has no room for Jesus but plenty of room for Pope Joan. We could squeeze more truth from a used-car salesman than we could from these people.
Catholic Ping - Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list
Next week - a very special Prime Time Live about the curious story of Maria Monk.
Pope Joan's jig was up when she gave birth.
bump for later
File it under 'Geeze, Not This ***t Again'. I'll be at a quilt shop spending money.
Not a chance that wouldn't be prudent.
The early history of the papacy is not a pretty thing. From being the controller of great amounts of wealth handed out for favors to holding orgies, its history is not what most would think it is.
Alright ABC. You win. The whole Jesus thing is a hoax, you've convinced me. Now I'll sit quietly and watch your Desperate Houswives and whatever other garbage you want to feed me.
I'm just glad you dumped Monday Night Football, so I don't ever have to watch your stupid network again.
"You know, I'm going to start thanking
the woman who cleans the restroom in
the building I work in. I'm going to start
thinking of her as a human being"
Why is this old legend so hot right now?
It's an "Urban" myth...........
Not in the MSM.
Feminism! The feminists are paving the way for the release of The daVinci Code.
Guess the fact that it's not true won't stop them.
File it under 'Jeez, Not This ***t Again'. I'll be at a quilt shop spending money.
(2) The early history of the Papacy, from Peter to St. Gregory the Great, is incredibly awe-inspiring. The world's first system of leadership based on goodness, not military power.
(3) No Pope ever "held orgies" - that's a myth spread by uneducated idiots with an agenda. There isn't the slightest shred of evidence to support such a charge.
It is well known that John XII threw wild sex parties.
Little Joan was not feelin' well...
She was afraid she might go to hell...
But she never gave up hope...
even when she became the Pope..
Said hey Joan, take a walk on the wild side.
>> It's an "Urban" myth...........<<
Funny you should mention that... I think Pope Urban was the real Pope. :^D
Sometimes history isn't pretty.
You are likely more correct in pegging the time frame. But I would say the fist 700 years of a 2000 year religion could be considered "early".
He definitely had an affair with one woman - the widow of one of his political rivals from his secular career, and this affair almost certainly continued during his Papacy.
He also supposedly played at dice and hunted and completely neglected his duties in favor of politicking.
In other words, he behaved exactly like a typical petty nobleman of his day, instead of taking his responsibilities seriously.
But not even his most dogged enemies accused him of holding orgies.
No, he did not. His enemies referred to the Lateran as a brothel because he brought his mistress there - an absolutely disgusting display - but no one seriously claimed that actual prostitutes were plying their trade in the Lateran.
The actual facts of John XII life are extremely ugly - he was an immoral, irreligious slob.
There's no need to invent unattested tales of orgies and brothels.
Scroll down to "fiction 4", here:
I would suggest people complain:
Actually I remember Paul Harvey telling this story when I was young.
There are segments of the old bible that are not allowed
because they refer to this incident.
I grew up believing this for 50 years.
may or may not be true but what an impression it made
Gosh, I didn't know that! How did I miss it in my studies of history, it being so well known and all?
In the 10th century the city of Rome fell under the control of a few powerful families who ruled the city like Mafiosi since the political order of Europe was chaotic and there were no external checks on these gangster families.
They used their power to coerce the clergy of Rome to elect their sympathizers to the Papacy.
John XII was one of these Popes.
Benedict VII tried to break the hold these families had over the Papacy and insituted some strong reforms in 981. In 999, Frenchman Gerbert D'Aurillac - the well-known scholar - came to Rome to set matters in order and the Cluniac reformers followed in his wake.
John XII was a sickening anomaly, not a typical Pope even for his time.
Their privies had no absolutely no privacy back then. Bathroom habits for most people were pretty public. It wouldn't take too long before someone would noticed. I guess this fact eludes the MSM.
"But not even his most dogged enemies accused him of holding orgies."
"Much that is alleged about the pornocracy comes from the histories of Liutprand, bishop of Cremona. Liutprand took part in the Assembly of Bishops which deposed Pope John XII and was a political enemy of Rome; he is described by the Catholic Encyclopedia as "ever a strong partisan and frequently unfair towards his adversaries." The worst excesses of the time might be considered no more than ecclesiastic gossip."
That'll be the day when they say anything against mohammad...
(curses and pig p!ss be upon him)
It'd probably be something more like....
Mohammad: Savior of the Universe.
Uses that interesting word "pornocracy" - rule by whores.
The "whores" in question were the women of the Theophylactus family of Rome. They were not actual wprking prostitutes, of course, they were women who slept around to gain influence and leverage over their families' political rivals.
I would imagine Theodora and her daughters were much like the Atia character in the series Rome.
Sorry, but that is NOT the "early history of the papacy". They call them "the Middle Ages" for a reason.
"I would imagine Theodora and her daughters were much like the Atia character in the series Rome."
My wife & I love 'Rome'. I'm hoping they're going to pick up the story of Octavian's rise to power. I also hope that, like other HBO shows, I don't have to wait 2 years before the next episode!
ABC did NOT "discover" anything new. The story of Pope Joan was aired on PBS a few years ago.
The Catholic church is purported to have erased any knowledge of Pope Joan from the church records. It is a story now told by the nuns.
A group of licensed genealogists attempted to determine who this "Pope Joan" was...to no avail.
The American Spectator had a blurb about this on their blog: http://www.spectator.org/blogger.asp#1293
ABC's Pope Joan - Thursday, December 29, 2005 @ 2:40:39 PM
Those naming the mainstream media as their Enemy of the Year (below) won't be dissuaded after learning about Primetime's segment tonight. Diane Sawyer will "report" (read: speculate) about a Pope Joan, a rumored female pope in the ninth century.
In a Video on Demand preview at the ABC News website, the anchorette asks the segment's producer, Ann Reynolds, what evidence exists of Pope Joan. Reynolds responds, "You're talking about the dark ages. t is almost impossible to prove anything. There's no sense of history as you or I would accept it. There's no sense of proof as a news person would accept it. But it's an amazing mystery." Hmmm... tabloids usually run their gossip yarns with more evidence than that.
But what do historians say? Reynolds answers, "They argue back and forth. There's so little hard evidence that I don't think anybody can say it's true. There are people who can say they believe it because of the preponderance of evidence. But we talked to all sorts of them and they have arguments back and forth."
In an email release, the Catholic League details Diane Sawyer's presentation:
Sawyer tells us that Pope Joan gave birth while processing. Pope Joan, she says, dressed in male garb, but this is not an historical anomaly: Sawyer shows us a picture of a woman dressed as a soldier in the U.S. Civil War and then proclaims, "Which brings us back to Joan." But of course. Another segue could have been little girls dressed up as GI Joe on Halloween, but that might have unsettled the sure-mouthed Sawyer.
Sawyer does not interview either Paul Johnson, the world renowned historian and author of "The Papacy," nor does she interview Eamon Duffy, the brilliant historian from Cambridge and author of the magisterial volume, "Saints and Sinners: A History of the Popes." Had she done so they would have laughed in her smug face. So who does she rely on? Donna Cross and Mary Malone. Cross wrote a novel about the mythical Pope Joan and has no standing among scholars. Malone is an ex-nun who lost her faith and hates the Catholic Church. "I can no longer pray," she said in 1996, "because of the language, and because it seemed so essential as the core of the tradition that God be male."
Maybe next week we'll get a segment about mainstream media integrity and how bloggers rely on shoddy sources.
It's a shame the Media Research Center has already compiled its media quotes of the year. Add these to the ballot for 2006.
Next they will email all the people on their address books so Bill Gates and AOL will send them millions of dollars, they will get thousands of gift certificates to restaurants and they will have cute little animations pop up on their monitors for every ten emails they send.
The down side is that the United States Post Office will charge them $.05 for every email they send.
Was he a Kennedy?
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