Posted on 02/05/2006 12:57:00 AM PST by kms61
credit counselors are not lawyers.
It is a 30-45 TELEPHONIC class you pay about 40 dollars to hear.
The counseling is a joke.
ALSO (and important) if there are emergency circumstaces the new law provides for a waiver and 30 window to take the class IF APPLIED FOR.
The class is a joke to make money for the "counseling agencies" and is intended as a way for credit car agencies to try and get some last gasp payments fromt he debtor before they go into bankruptcy anyways.
Fortunatly the founding fathers thought differently and wisely put bankruptcy into the constitution. It is not the government intervening any more than the free exercise of the first amendment with regards to religion or speech is third party interfearance.
Thanks for clarification, but it still sounds as if a person's rights to the court are hampered by a profit-based third party.
Those of use who have actually read the law know it to be 100% garbage and more poorly written than CFR.
The debtor is free to appeal the ruling and have the judges dicta upheld.
It is only a matter of time before someone appeals this.
The new rules only affect 15% of the people.
The only thing they have done to those 15% is make them go into ch 13 where lawyers can charge 3x$.
It also added a lawyer where the credit card sponsored counseling agencies get one last bite to sucker people into paying. (remember even a $1 payment reboots the statute of limitations on uncollectable debts.)
I suspect the ultimate goal is to create an INVOLUNTARY system of bankruptcy so the credit card agencies can do a forced bankruptcy on middle class people who don't do asset protection.
If poor people... um, I mean, "middle class people on down" wanted to be treated fairly, they would have paid the same amount as the banks. Abramoff and his ilk would not have rejected their offerings.
That's the problem with common folk these days. They expect to be treated like the Very Best, but they refuse to pay their fair share.
Well, Earth to these pikers -- their money is as green as the pinstriped banker, down at the Best Little Big Whorehouse in Washington. All they have to do is PAY.
The nerve of these socialists! They expect to get the same treatment as the bankers, while "contributing" nothing more than their votes?
LOL! The fools...
This is America, not some two-bit banana republic. MONEY talks, period.
What? You can't pay your bills and your "representatives" too?
Gee. Sounds like you should have made some more money, doesn't it. How 'bout you shut up now, and get to the back of the bus?
Face it, folks. We're strictly on a pay-to-ride basis these days, and neither "party" is gonna give you the time of day unless YOU give THEM some of "the mother's milk of politics."
The bankers simply had deeper pockets than anyone else. Funny how that works, ain't it.
I suspect you are on to something.
I wonder what it costs to set up a trust these days?
Holy crap, I'm in total agreement with Westlander!
Sears is specifically one of the companies I meant. I once bought something on a time arrangement from Sears. Since then, they have been sending me a new card every couple years, but I never activate it.
I'm not a big advocate of refi or anything, but you should be able to shop around and get something a heck of alot more resonable than what you got.
'money on smoking and drinking' The sin taxes paid by the commoners financed your student loans.
He waited until the last possible moment before doing anything about it, and we're supposed to feel sorry for him and give him a pass? You are so quick to blame the evil credit lobbyist and those evil credit card companies, yet perfectly happy to let this guy walk; great, just great.
For this one who waited to the last minute there are vurtualy thousands maybe millions who didn't and are still losing !
Debtors prison ? we have that already it's called Welfare.
Heres hoping you don't make some of the same simple mistakes others do and get into financial trouble and lose everything you worked hard for !
And it's just a coincidence that the credit cards skyrocketed their minimum monthly payments at the same time this law went into effect.
Detective Leaphorn says ''There are no coincidences>".
The only funny thing on SNL last night was their free program for stopping debt. "If you don't have the money don't buy it!".
He only gets to keep the house if he continues making mortgage payments on it.
The BK court can prohibit the bank from forclosing, yes -- but, the bank will get paid for the mortgage. This is a win-win, unless the bank's game was to get "free real estate". I don't think too many banks are in that game, although I've heard of various "home improvement contractors" playing it -- to win, hard. (I recall one place that had a reputation for velvet-tonguing "low-middle-income-minority" types into signing up to buy window awnings of all things -- at a "discount price, with easy terms", and then fine-printing them into losing their homes to the "awning company" when they fell five minutes late on a payment. They weren't into "selling window awnings", they were into "stealing homes from the unwary, using 'window awnings' as bait." There is a special place in hell for people running that game, if you ask me.)
But back to our theoretical home-owner...
If he defaults on the payments, the bank owns the house. There is a difference between "secured debt" and "unsecured debt". A mortgage is "secured debt". A credit card balance is "unsecured debt."
From the article I got the impression that Chapter 7 would allow Mr. Sosa to erase most of his debt, including his mortgage, while keeping the house.
The idea is as old as The Laws of Moses given man through GOD. You want to say he is wrong as well? Tell me do you intend to use Medicare when you retire? Look in the mirror then. Do you drive on a hi-way? Look in the mirror then. Someone payed a lot more to build that road than you did. So don't you think those who paid more should have the right then to limit your use of it? Well? Do you think it is right for them to pay more so you can use that road? What if you just walk on it and don't pay a wheel tax?
Listen if I was some irresponsible jerk you and many more like you would be paying much higher taxes. Why? Because rather than take the best of the best we take on for need. Meaning what? Meaning this. If I was not a responsible person you would be helping to pay about $75,000 per year basic cost on a nursing home. Compare that to the basic cost of a person staying at home under family care. So tell me when your spouse or your parents become sick are you gonna toss them in a home and let somebody else pay for it? Or are you yourself going to care for them. If your gonna run your mouth on such issues then be ready to walk the walk of your talk. Otherwise you have some hard life lessons headed your way. As for me I have a clear conscience. I do what I can do as best I can.
You rattle your tongue but you evidently yet have had your turn at misfortunes that are far beyond your control that deplete all you have. We live a very modest existence. You'll never understand how much I believe in persons taking care of their own. But I know bad things happen beyond peoples control. Such as tose need and deserve help. If not then our free society isn't worth a tinker damn because it lost it's collective soul. Persons in need is not the same thing as persons who can work and won't or persons who can pay bills and won't. Learn the difference.
Education? Give it back to the states and local governments to fund and operate. Housing? A nursing home I once worked in was a poor farm before that. I doubt you ever heard of one though. Health Care? You can thank the lying cheating Insurers for a lot of that one. Add these to them as well. Lawyers looking for doctors to sue, Lawmakers who regulated medical care to the point churches could no longer afford own or operate hospitals due to mandates and such acts as the HMO ACT. The largest cost of health care isn't citizens who can not afford to pay. The biggest cost in a hospital is ones trying to figure out how in the devil to get the HMO's and Big Insurers to pay their bills and filling out tons of paper work to justify a fifty cent Aspirin. They do this only to get a letter saying no then have to file an appeal.
Over half the staff in a hospital is now Admin dedicated to this cause the same with drug stores and some doctors offices as well. If I had to have a basic surgical procedure it would take at least one person doing paper work and making calls for up to 8 hours just to get the insurer to agree to pay for it. My Pharmacist has 5-8 people working on any given day. When I was a kid {not so long ago} two persons ran the pharmacy.
Again this comes back to government being corporate protectors which is not a Constitutional duty of government. But guess who government has running Medicare now? The one and the same they protect and the one and the same who put us down socialized health care to start with. I remember when a person could go to a doctor and even the hospital and be able to pay for it and I'm under 50. But hey I bet you think insurance is the best thing to happen to man since the wheel huh?
For those working in the blind and just mouthing off, here you go. Bankruptcy still offers a second chance it is not the bonanza it once was, though. Personal responsibility, remember that? It is still the order of the day.
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http://www.nolo.com/article.cfm/catId/462A9501-9B21-4E09-A08C5A7B8AF51A79/objectId/B0B66870-4C52-4303-919B10B9611D3EF9/213/161/ART
The New Bankruptcy Law
Here are some of the major changes you should know about.
Now that the new bankruptcy law is in effect, the landscape has changed for those who are considering bankruptcy. All debtors will have to get credit counseling before they can file a bankruptcy case -- and additional counseling on budgeting and debt management before their debts can be wiped out. Some filers with higher incomes won't be allowed to use Chapter 7, but will instead have to repay at least some of their debt under Chapter 13. And, because the law imposes new requirements on lawyers, it will be tougher to find an attorney to represent you in a bankruptcy case.
Here are some of the most important changes.
Counseling Requirements
Before you can file for bankruptcy under either Chapter 7 or Chapter 13, you must complete credit counseling with an agency approved by the United States Trustee's office. (To find an approved agency in your area, go to the Trustee's website, www.usdoj.gov/ust, and click "Credit Counseling and Debtor Education.") The purpose of this counseling is to give you an idea of whether you really need to file for bankruptcy or whether an informal repayment plan would get you back on your economic feet.
Counseling is required even if it's obvious that a repayment plan isn't feasible or you are facing debts that you find unfair and don't want to pay. You are required only to participate, not to go along with any repayment plan the agency proposes. However, if the agency does come up with a repayment plan, you will have to submit it to the court, along with a certificate showing that you completed the counseling, before you can file for bankruptcy.
Once your bankruptcy case is over, you'll have to attend another counseling session, this time to learn personal financial management. Only after you submit proof to the court that you fulfilled this requirement can you get a bankruptcy discharge wiping out your debts. (The website above also lists approved debt counselors.)
Restricted Eligibility for Chapter 7
Under the old rules, most filers could choose the type of bankruptcy that seemed best for them -- and most chose Chapter 7 over Chapter 13. The new law will prohibit some filers with higher incomes from using Chapter 7.
How High is Your Income?
Under the new rules, the first step in figuring out whether you can file for Chapter 7 is to measure your "current monthly income" against the median income for a family of your size in your state. Your "current monthly income" is not your income at the time you file, however: It is your average income over the last six months before you file. For many people, particularly those who are filing for bankruptcy because they recently lost a job, their "current monthly income" according to these rules will be much more than they take in each month by the time they file for bankruptcy.
Once you've calculated your income, compare it to the median income for your state. (You can find median income tables, by state and family size, at the website of the United States Trustee, www.usdoj.gov/ust; click "Means Testing Information.")
If your income is less than or equal to the median, you can file for Chapter 7. If it is more than the median, however, you must pass "the means test" -- another requirement of the new law -- in order to file for Chapter 7.
The Means Test
The purpose of the means test is to figure out whether you have enough disposable income, after subtracting certain allowed expenses and required debt payments, to make payments on a Chapter 13 plan.
To find out whether you pass the means test, you start with your "current monthly income," calculated as described above. From that amount, you subtract both of the following:
Certain allowed expenses, in amounts set by the IRS. Generally, you cannot subtract what you actually spend for things like transportation, food, clothing, and so on; instead, you have to use the limits the IRS imposes, which may be lower than the cost of living in your area.
Monthly payments you will have to make on secured and priority debts. Secured debts are those for which the creditor is entitled to seize property if you don't pay (such as a mortgage or car loan); priority debts are obligations that the law deems to be so important that they are entitled to jump to the head of the repayment line. Typical priority debts include child support, alimony, tax debts, and wages owed to employees.
If your total monthly disposable income after subtracting these amounts is less than $100, you pass the means test, and will be allowed to file for Chapter 7. If your total remaining monthly disposable income is more than $166.66, you have flunked the means test, and will be prohibited from using Chapter 7.
So what about those in the middle? They have to do some more math. If your remaining monthly disposable income is between $100 and $166.66, you must figure out whether what you have left over is enough to pay more than 25% of your unsecured, nonpriority debts (such as credit card bills, student loans, medical bills, and so on) over a five-year period. If so, you flunk the means test, and Chapter 7 won't be available to you. If not, you pass the means test, and Chapter 7 remains an option.
The cost of living in Arizona was much lower perhaps? I'm not defending the auto union they brought a lot on themselves. But the reality of the auto boom was if you made a lot of money woking in Detroit you cost of living reflected it. Even school janitors were being paid up to 4 times the national average.
I drove Over The Road 18 wheeler for a while back in the mid 1980's. I dreaded getting loads above the Mason Dixon Line. I was working on southern wages and trying to buy my meals up there took a good chunk of change. Southern runs meant more take home pay. IOW when compared to the local cost of living I doubt the auto workers faired better than construction workers in Arizona. The smart auto workers who do retire head back south to live.
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