Posted on 02/15/2006 3:24:03 AM PST by Cornpone
thanks for the ping.
What we need is more cartoons of Madmo and more demonstrations by ugly, angry muslim males carrying signs like these:
IT'S GREAT WHEN THE ENEMY PAYS FOR YOUR ADVERTISING!
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MEL's -PASSION- sparked by -WE WERE SOLDIERS-
http://www.Freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1085111/posts
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They left South America off the list.
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We are truly blessed to have this Man of CLARITY leading our Military in Time of War.
Transcript: Gen. Peter Pace on 'FOX News Sunday'
http://www.Freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1546978/posts
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Priorities The report identifies four priority areas: Defeating terrorist networks, defending the homeland in depth, shaping the choices of countries at strategic crossroads and preventing hostile states and non-state actors from acquiring or using weapons of mass destruction.
I totally agree with this.
Good article, thanks.
Based upon my reading of the Koran and limited understanding, I really do not disagree with you in principle. However, from a strategy perspective, an old saw (slightly modified) comes to mind: united they stand, divided they fall.
Absolutely, they know that, and we do to... right now the ummah is so fractured and divided without a caliph or caliphate giving us opportunities to play factions against each other. I'm slightly puzzled by your use of the term "umma wahida" as I interpret this to be a "united single islmaic community," one thats more applicable to historal unity than the fragmented ideological state of the ummah today. I suppose its possible some interpret this a different way, and the term sometimes gets used by those seeking to reunite the ummah under central authority.
For example, there are 206 million Indoneasians, of which, 88 percent profess to be Muslim. There are also 40 million Sudanese, again, of which, a huge number are Muslim. These two numbers alone are more than the 1.2 to 1.5 million you cited.
Sorry, typo or lapse of concentration on my part. I meant 1.2 - 1.5 billion not million, in response to the 2 billion you quoted. I cited those numbers from islamic sites and they tend to vary from between 1.2 to 1.5 billion. Bear in mind the demographics of these nations, many are young and have little understanding of islam and often many indigenous peoples who hold traditional pagan or animist beliefs get lumped in as "native muslims" as in the case of Malaysia and Indonesia. Some just rename their magic and superstitions, or call themselves Bomohs or muslims and claim inspiration from the koran so their practices and beliefs are not persecuted by authorities. Many others are claimed by islam, because of accident of birth and are not allowed to leave. Muslims oppress their own and get more muslims killed than anyone else.
Additionally, there are already very real fissures and splinters (some heretical) in Islam such as Sunnis, Shiites, Suffis, Sikhs, etc.
Scratch Sikhs from the list and I agree. For more on Sikhs, see what I wrote in #8 here.
OK, I will not pick at little details any further and will attempt to more constructive instead.
Lets get back to the value of mecca. I would never rule out the full scale destruction of makkah (or mecca, whatever they want to call it) but see it more of a back up plan, a plan B. IMHO, its most valuable use of the destruction of the holy sites in a way that would be to prove their mahdi seekers and their end of times prophecies are inaccurate, and to challenge the very core of their delusional belief system by taking out two of islam 5 pillars. I would not suggest threatening mecca officially, or too overtly, as if we dont carry thru with our threat, many muslims may interpret this as divine protection and it may enforce their belief in their allah. I would simply refuse to rule it out, and keep the option open as a plan B, for the very reasons you mentioned.
As for the Hashemites... I bring them up not as an ideal solution, because I dont think anyone has a perfect plan, but as a solution I'm willing to live with for the near future because IMHO, we lack a multitude of better options. Saudi Arabia is unstable. The vast majority of their population is under 30, indoctrinated on a diet of wahabbi hatred and islamic supremacy, many too lazy to contribute anything to the prosperity of their nation because they have taken up islamic studies instead.
The KSA is on shaky ground, and if free and fair elections were held, "radicals" as many call them, would makes gains. I have my doubts the House of Saud can challenge their ulema, implement the kind of religious reforms we need, introduce democracy, and continue to hold power at the same time. If and when the KSA implodes, we need to have a strategy ready. The Hashemites, having not only a claim, but the best claim on the Holy sites of the Hijaz besides the current "custodians" are best suited to retake control. The Hashemites not only have a historical claim, King Abdullah is also a "sayyid," a descendant of the mohammad tho he, his father, and grandfather are much more rational and honorable than the mad "prophet." Because of the nature of the KSA, we better have a plan to back Hashemite armies to retake the hijaz, and delegitimize the message of the current custodians.
I see it as possibly desirable in the short term but unrealistically misguided for the long term...
I tend to agree. The life span of any dynasty is indeed limited by its rulers. Islamic fundamentalism, a call for the return to pure islam and a more or less united ummah to challenge the west will always be on the cards waiting to reignite again unless islam is reformed or the ideology totally discredited and humiliated in defeat in the way fascism, Japanese imperialism and communism were. Either way islam, as we know it, should no longer exist in a way that can threaten us. Islam idelogy and its underlying obligation of expansion and territorial conquest by the sword as carried out by mohammad himself came close to wiping out western civilization in the past and we must never forget it or underestimate it.
Wahabbism is probably too deeply ingrained on the Arabian peninsula to rooted out and it would not be long before another Ibn Saud appeared to overthrow the Hashemites.
You and I are probably some of the few here who have seem what kind of government it takes to keep control and stay in power in todays islamic world and its not the kind of liberal democracy many here can relate to.
Additionally, a truly democratic style government would severely curtail Sharia and eliminate dhimmi status.
I for one, have severe reservations of the impact of the rush to democratize islamic peoples and hold free and fair elections in nations where they have little understanding of western democratic values and equality. In malaysia, I watched in disbelief as they voted in sharia on the east coast states of Terengganu and Kelantan with popular consent, and witnessed it's impact on frightened muslims and non-muslims alike as islam undermined the very institutions that brought it to power in the first place. Islamic parties like PAS were on a roll, and it took extreme measures (echos of the Kemalist iron fist to secularize and prohibit many islamic practices in Turkey) - less than fair electoral practices for UMNO and Barisan National to stay in charge and confront them, eventually making the rulers make up a new islam "Islam Hidari" and impose it on their people without consent because they could not counter those who could simply quote from the scholars, sura and sunna to justify a purer form of islamic rule. Islam Hidari is a joke. Their own people know it. Islamic religious apartheid is the norm there, in the so called moderate islamic state, which has shed many of the laws handed down to them by the Brits. The went from a western oriented state to an islamofascist mockery of democracy under UMNO and Mahathir. Even he had to concede his powerbase to sharia and religious police in order to stay in power so I watch the evolution of Iraq with historcial examples like this in mind, and watch the roles of those such as Ayatollah Sistani with great suspicion and unease.
Im not writing off democracy of course, but see it a possible two step solution, and not as a single step solution all on its own.
I wrote a post right after HAMAS won their election (note the date) here (#48) on the "Daniel Pipes: Region not ripe for democracy" thread.
The main part I wanted to draw your attention to was this:
... I believe (I may be wrong) it was Thomas Friedman who wrote an article about about the ongoing conflict or civil war in the islamic world between those that lean towards more secular forms of society, and the "true believers" who advocate a return to islamic basics. I believe he mentioned something along the lines of pushing for democracy in saudi arabia, not because he thought it would bring in rulers who were more friendly to the west, but the opposite, because it would bring in a more extreme theocracy, which may repulse the growing youth segment of their population in the hopes they may come to their senses, along the lines of the Iranians who have grown up to reject the rule by their mullahs.
Now, I differ with Friedman some of his basic premises about islam, but thats not what I wanted to bring up, it's his (if he was indeed the author I'm thinking of) "other" option here.
Lets also put aside possible holes in this argument which appears to follow a premise of "all other variables remaining equal" and the possibility of free and fair elections producing a theocracy which effectively becomes a terrorist state who may seek to acquire biological and chemical weapons (why spend years warning the kuffar by building nuclear infrastructure first) and consider what next step of the game plan is.
What if, for example in the case of the Palestinian elections, it was Sharons intention all along to let the world see exactly what Palestinians stand for and let paint themselves into a corner. In many ways, the Palestinian case differs from the above Saudi example because of their economic reliance on Israel, and they are much more vulnerable to the overwhelming power of the IDF and the freezing of international funds. We now have a situation where the enemy can be laid seize to, starved into submission, and those who support or voted for them can see exactly how and why their ideology will fail to produce the mythical islamic Shangri La they had hoped for.
The bigger question is, is this effect of bringing democracy elsewhere in the islamic world ethically acceptable as a two step solution as opposed to an end unto itself? If free and fair elections were held in Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Algeria etc, we know self declared "true believers" would benefit from it.
So do we take gamble and let muslims go ahead and use democracy or free and fair elections to feed themselves to the lions, so to speak, and have us all suffer the likely consequences so muslims may eventually learn the hard way that their lions (mullahs/imams) bite, maul and kill, and stop seeing islam thru rose tinted glasses and come around to understanding the realities of islamic rule like the long suffering Iranians and Afghanis because it ends up being a necessary process in both their collective societys and their individual ideological evolution?
Should we step back and return to continuing to prop up less than perfect regimes, our "friends" the "true believers" deem apostates and in league with the kuffar, turning a blind eye to the "imperfections" of the Mahathirs, Suhartos, Musharrafs and Mubaraks of the world because they are the lesser of two evils, going go back to the cold war "he may be a S.O.B, but he's our S.O.B." way of thinking that has caused us problems in the past?
Or do we face the harsh facts about islam and its founder, placing it firmly in the faces of both mulsim and our own "unenlightened" so we may honestly confront and discredit the ideology and many of its fundamental cornerstones first in the hopes we may eventually pave the way to another long term solution where they don't hang themselves and threaten to take us down with them in the process?
Anyway.. thats my $0.02.
We live in very interesting times where the Saudis have "radicalized" 80% of US mosques with their cash and wahabbi brand of salafyism (see here and here ) and have done the same in many isamic countries, constructing beautiful enormous marble cladded mosques, engaging in their dawah and controlling zakat collections. If anythings becoming remotely close to claiming the title of "mainstream" islam within the many sects and divisions, this may just be it.
For the self declared "true believers," the prophecy of the 72 sects is still playing out so I waiting to see when the muslim world will wake up an realize that islam is their own worst enemy.
LOL... I still have a soft spot for these pics:
B4L8r
Bush has, I believe, recognized this from the beginning. Thus, from the very outset, the emphasis on democratic methods and individual freedom.
Ideas are fought with ideas...better ideas.
In this conflict, we have the ultimate weapon: freedom.
RE:China's Communists have in effect slowly but surely given up on Collectivism and state planning as the central role in China's economy.
The trouble with China is that it is very large and diverse, like the Soviet Union was, and thus not really governable by one single central power player. Since Mao, the governance is by a coalition government.
In the past, the coalition agreed on communism, now they don't. But there are still major players that do retain their ideological purity and they are the ones most likely to act aggressively on their beliefs. They are quite capable of causing major ill to the U.S. and Taiwan (which can draw us into a major conflict) over the short haul, subvertly or overtly.
These elements in the Chinese power grid may even have had a hidden hand in some of the al Qaida activities over the last ten years or so. They cannot be dismissed as they are a major threat.
Also, in China, there are two other factors that can cause aggressiveness to rise from that country. Nationalism is replacing communism and it is a dangerous transition stage. Also the country is becoming laden with extra young men who were indulged only children and cannot find women to marry. These men can make the military more aggressive and risk taking.
As for Russia, as they did not actually adopt a true capitalist economy, the citizenry there is not reaping the benefits of one. As a result, there is a rise in belief among the populace there that they made a mistake in abandoning communism, and political candidates that espouse socialism/communism (and keep ties to Western communists) will be more likely to gain power in the future.
Putin, as a result, has back-pedaled a great deal on his initial openness to Western economic and political ideas and ties in order to keep power.
And there are still many in Russia that wish to regain control of their old empire, if only for the many agricultural and mineral resources that were present in those satellite states.
Enjoyed reading your post #88. Thanks for taking the time.
Thanks for your 2 cents posted at 108.
Glad to know we have some people out there who are looking hard and long at the parameters of the "challenge" we now face.
Recommend reading the exchange between Lucky Dog and USF, posts 78, 88, 93, 101, 108, 111.
At the present we are involved in both Afghanistan and Iraq and there is a big European troop contingent in Afghanistan and quite a few in Iraq, so Europe is involved in the present effort.
Their is a ongoing COIN operations in both countries involving both military and civilian operations mainly nation building.
Next conflict will be Iran, Syria Lebanon and although its not in the news it will be and that is Indonesia which is a growing threat in South East Asia.
Then back burner problems which although boiling now may boil over within the next decade.
Kashmir, The Horn and North Africa, Morocco, Algeria Tunisia.
And then there is the North Caucasus and Central Asia.
All these are present and future trouble spots.
I don't say potential I mean future trouble spots.
Each one will or may need more than special op troops on the ground.
How long will it take to stabilize Iraq and Afghanistan, can we stabilize one country before another boils over.
Thank you... enjoyed your post #113 as well.
Thanks for the great ping, Patty, and your #113 was pretty insightful as well.
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