The United States's long war

Mail & Guardian (South Africa) ^ | 15 February 2006 | Mail & Guardian

[USF]

However, you seem to place a great deal more importance on deposing the Saudi's than I think is currently necessary. It is not that I disagree in principle with you, it is just that I see limited resources on the part of the West as a factor we must take into account.

About Saudi... as I hinted above, they [the house of Saud] are not only hated in the west, they are hated right across the ummah for their corruption, decadence, arrogance, hypocrisy, and lies. The wahhabi religious ulema the Saud family (I'm sure you're already aware of the mutually beneficial relationship between the Wahhabi ulema the saud family so I won't go into it) use to stay in power has huge influence in the islamic world, and has been fueling the current global islamic resurgence with both ideological support and funding. They are the purveyors of hatred and the worst of islams evils in the world, and have fed and nurtured the many other salafyist groups, including the Muslim Brotherhood (Ikhwan) and its many offshoots, including Hamas.

The Egyptian arm of the Ikhwan (MB) under Ayman al Zawahiri became the co-founder of Al Qaeda as when Zawahiri merged his network with Bin Ladens Afghan and Pakistani based Mujahadeen. The global trend of feeding off purist islamic ideology and attempting to overthrow governments (the House of Saud included) to reestablish the Caliphate in the islamic resurgence has come directly from islam, the Mecca based salafi ulema and a long line of scholars who have passed thru Al-Azhar University and influenced by this ulema. The Egyptians under Mubarak have been able to do their part in the crackdown, out of necessity and self interest, and worldwide salafi groups have become wiser in their public statements taking to hiding some of their ideological goals, but they remain the same. For eg, look into the long arms of not just the Ikhwan (MB) which spawned groups like Hamas, but of Hizb ut Tahrir, and their splinter groups in Europe (Al Mujaharoun, Al-Ghurabaa, Savior Sect, etc), the US and Pakistan.

I think Dore Gold book is the best place to start for the average reader who has no extensive background understanding of Islam. He does not cover the later groups, but catalogs the history of the Saud/Wahhabi pact, the wahhabis and Saud governments global reach, the jihad and resurgence cashflow, the US/British/Saud relationship back to beginning, and the source of the fuel for islamic hatred based on islamic and non-islamic sources that are well documented. Dont worry, ex-UN ambassador Gold's book is free from hyperbole and reads like a cross between history book and an intelligence report. It has been praised by Daniel Pipes, Richard Perle (former Assistant Secretary of Defense) and James Woolsey (former CIA director) who wrote:

"Those who direct Saudi Arabia's state religion [wahhabism] loathe Christians, Jews, other Muslims, modernity, decency towards women, and freedom itself. The Saudi establishment has accepted and Faustian bargain, buying protection for itself by financing the spread of Wahhabi hatred around the world. If you want to read one book to understand the roots of Al Qaeda's fury, it should be this one..."

The other reading material I could recommend would come from Islamic sources, and are harder for many non-muslims to understand as they thickly laden with not only islamic terms and quotes but also concepts thus the reader would need a good reference of not only the koran and hadeeths but the writings and influence of the scholars, so I'll leave that out for now. If you feel inclined, a good place to start on the islamic side may be the prolific and highly influential works of Sayyid Qutb (his brother and Abdullah Azzam were Bin Ladins and Ayman al Zawahiris ideologial mentors) and his links back to the Ikhwan, Wahhabis and Saud funding. The Azzam, Al Neda and Taliban Online websites were (rightfully) taken down after 9/11 but the roots of their ideology was clear.

Please download the PDF file linked to on the second LGF article in my post #108 and read it in a new light after you check out Golds book and the other LGF link.

Back on track to the US now. In my time here on Freep I've had numerous debates with people I both agree and and disagree with on the nature of the islamic ideology that feeds the jihadi groups. One particular trend has emerged among apologists for islam when confronted with facts and evidence about the dark side of islam. The blame wahabbis... the old line "oh, of course the wahhabi are bad, BUT...." or "Islam is hijacked BUT..." (The latter is an argument I don't buy, tho' it's not relevant to this discussion).

This seems "blame the wahhabis" seems to be a common reflex now when confronted with indisputable evidence linking islamic ideology to global terrorism, so some can use it as a scapegoat and concede defeat gracefully while ignoring the long 1300 year history of islamic barbarity and the problems with other sects. Fine, they can stay in denial if they want, and I respect many of these people as individuals and am quite happy to agree to disagree with them. BUT even by their playbook they have appointed blame right back at Saudi Arabia though many of them don't want to deal directly with Saudi Arabia as a solution. Some think "hey just sprinkle some democracy and reforms at it and the problems will go away." They have to understand the rapid effect of reforms and democracy there will add instability, and let more "radicals" (as they call them) gain control in the backlash.

My personal feeling is the clock is ticking very fast and the ideological war is in danger of going hot (hot as in seas of glass) as we get sucked into their problems so we lack luxury of time for slow creeping reforms to trickle down. I see the value of back up plans for different eventualities, and worst case scenarios, when/if Saud reforms fail, but reform they must and it has to be done soon even if it breaks them (a good thing IMHO, as it forces us to take more action) and we have to back Hashemite armies and take this to the next levels. Our patching up Iraq and (to a lesser extent, dealing with Iran and other issues) buys them all the "hudna" time I'm willing to give them, but when the Iraqi government and its forces are strong enough we will hopefully have a free hand.

You mentioned separating elements, you know I would like to do that too; but with the provinces of the hijaz with their religious significance, from the wahhabi backed ideology and petrodollars of Riyadh. In my book, the Saud and Wahhabis are some of the vilest forms human life, trading in human misery, little better than Taliban after a shower and a few trillion shoved in their bank accounts. Their whole nation is based on the Koran (its idea of a constitution) where us filty kuffar are to impure to even walk, live or breathe on parts of its soil. This is the kind of vile ideology, pure evil, and hatred they have been nourishing and exporting for decades, and it's time someone had the guts to take them on and plot their demise before they spawn a few million more "true believers" who will eventually splinter away from them and turn their attention to us, as so many have done before. The latter would inculde some of the other Islamic groups/states you alluded to in your post, as once one is knocked down, another will keep taking its place if we keep addressing the symptoms and not the underlying cause.

LOL... I better stop now as I tend to go on a roll when I start on Saudi or islam and can go on forever. I think you know where I'm coming from by now, and I'm fine if you would be happier to agree to disagree for now, but hope some of the above offers you food for thought as you read thru the book or think about the spread and influence of islam. Of course this is mostly the military side of the issue as it relates to the KSA, and other approaches for eg, exposing their ideology in a sustained counter propaganda war would need to be used as well.

Your analysis of the PC crowd's (the enemy's fifth column, for sure) negative impact is understated, if anything, in my opinion.

LOL! I was just trying to keep it brief after a long day and don't always have the time to go into detail and I figured, quite correctly, you knew anyway. BTW, I often wonder how an independent islamic (ie, the funds and idea must never be traced back to us) documentary movie on the "Life of Mohammad," an Ayan Hirsi Ali "lite" based on the Koran and Hadeeths without any of the spin or overt inflammatory tone of Ali's and Van Goghs "submission," (translated for both the islamic and western world) would also bring many of the issues to the forefront and expose the foundation of islam for the kind of critique which is necessary to undergo any passage thru enlightenment and reformation. The "Ibn Warraqs" and many other Hirsi Alis of the world would have a great role to play. Sure would shake up the lefties and the fifth column too. ;oP

[bayouranger]

You are making an assumption; that Islam and pluralistic democracy can peacefully co-exist

> Actually, I was questioning whether the Christian Armanian Genocide committed by the Turkish population in conjunction with the military was part of the transition into a somewhat civilized society, which is what you posted. Does the murder of infidel citizens have to occur as it did in Pakistan? That was my question to you.


I put it to you that Islam has not had three of the most crucial pillars of that democratic tradition in it's history: it has not had anything like the Protestant Reformation, the Rennaisance nor the Age of Enlightenment

> Well, unfortunately, we do not have the luxury of time. That leaves very few feasible options to deal with this menace. Other than that..I'm in agreement to the rest of your post. Thank you clearly stating your position.

Take care,
BR

[bayouranger]

With God, all things are possible, including the conversion of Islam to Christianity.


God bless you and that statement.

[Lucky Dog]

…I tend to go on a roll…

Naw… You’re kidding me, right?…

On a more serious note, as I have mentioned before, I do not disagree with you in your assessment of either the Saudi family or of Islam, in general. I could easily leap into the fray with you and offer some condemnations you may have forgotten. However, that on which I was opining earlier was exactly what would be the most successful strategy to accomplish the goal of “defanging” Islam and/or the Saudi’s.

In spite the very good case you make for taking the Saudi’s on militarily, directly and immediately, I feel that such a course would not necessarily be the best strategy. The Saudi’s, for all of their complicity in spreading Wahabbism and indirectly bank rolling extremists, are ultimately interested in only one thing: retaining power. As was noted in your post they have made their Faustian bargain with the Wahabbi’s solely in the interest of power. The minute that they perceived that supporting Wahabbism was truly a threat to their power retention, the Saudi’s would toss it like week-old rotten fish. Consequently, the easiest, short-term solution, if it is possible, would be to find some way to “poison the Wahabbi well” for the Saudi’s. .

Such a move would bring at least two benefits simultaneously. First, the funding for Wahabbi world-wide propaganda would be severed instantly. With that funding loss, Wahabbism would shrivel to regional cult status. Second, the stability of the Saudi regime would be one of either immediate collapse or, alternately, enough secular/political clout to perform some Turkish style internal reforms. In either case, the west comes out ahead.

On the other hand, if we militarily assault Saudi’s directly, a-la-Iraq (even with similar military success), all we would succeed in doing, would be uniting the various Islamic fractions around the world against us in a world-wide confrontation. Consequently, as tempting as it sounds, we must avoid direct confrontation with the Saudi’s at least in the short term.

Your proposal of psychological warfare and counter-propaganda against the Saudi’s and Wahabbism is exactly what I was suggesting earlier (although not outlined in the detail to which you put it). The chief problem is the one of being the “invisible puppet master” for such an effort. I think if the current administration had solved that problem, you would, undoubtedly, be seeing what you propose occurring right now.

[jan in Colorado]

Thanks for the ping. This is an awesome thread!

USF >"The failures of their policies of appeasement and the clouds of smoke over a burning Europe today may just one day save them from becoming an extension of an islamic empire."

Wonder Warthog >"---appeasement doesn't work, and unless serious action (and I mean "kicking ass and taking names" on the LEADERSHIP of these movements) is taken, you are going to be in a world of hurt."

Supernatural >" The longer we wait before we strike, the stronger our enemies become."

Fisherrman >"So long as we are unwilling to even recognize and acknowledge the enemy with whom we are engaged, we may wound it here and there, but we cannot DEFEAT it."

livius >"Islam, furthermore, would have no qualms whatsoever about destroying the entire world, while we would -.... My theory is that Islam must be destroyed, and as soon as possible. I don't think we have 30 years to peck away at it."

USF >"waiting to see when the muslim world will wake up and realize that islam is their own worst enemy."

>" Orwell's words, written in October 1941, ring true today: "The notion that you can somehow defeat violence by submitting to it is simply a flight from fact. As I have said, it is only possible to people who have money and guns between themselves and reality."

The most telling of all...in their own words...

‘Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Qur'an should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth’ --, Omar Ahmed, Chairman of the Board of CAIR (Council of America)

"Never give in. Never, never, never, never! Never yield in any way great or small except to convictions of honor and good sense. Never yield to force and the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy." ~Winston Churchill

This war is between GOOD and EVIL. It's between light and darkness. Between Freedom and slavery. The enemy must be exposed and destroyed! There will be no peace until Muslims are freed from islam, and islam is defeated... destroyed...obliterated!

[Supernatural]

Those who have not learned the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them!

[Hill of Tara]

"This war is between GOOD and EVIL. It's between light and darkness. Between Freedom and slavery. The enemy must be exposed and destroyed! There will be no peace until Muslims are freed from islam, and islam is defeated... destroyed...obliterated!"

Exactly, Jan. The civilized world will only be safe when Islam is completely eradicated from the face of the earth. Islam is the epitome of evil and needs to be erased from existence.

[USF]

Thanks LD.

Short and brief this time.

the stability of the Saudi regime would be one of either immediate collapse or, alternately, enough secular/political clout to perform some Turkish style internal reforms.

I'm betting on the former as the House of Saud are already hated enough in the ummah, even by the different salafi factions themselves so they lack backing and the clout of the ummah... hence their pact with the ulema in the first place.

...if we militarily assault Saudi’s directly, a-la-Iraq (even with similar military success), all we would succeed in doing, would be uniting the various Islamic fractions around the world against us in a world-wide confrontation.

Hence IMHO, the need to back Hashemite armies and engage on an intense behind the scenes campaign to humiliate and delegitimize the entire Saud/wahabbi establishment.

All in all, between us, we have two workable plans here (and we've thought about our backups).. I'll be very happy if either bears fruit.

Take care, and have a great weekend.

[USF]

The most telling of all...in their own words...

May I add to that? ;o)

OFFENSIVE JIHAD (EXPLAINED BY MUSLIMS)

...the importance, reward and requirement for the Muslims to perform Jihaad Fi Sabeel Lillah i.e. physical struggle:

...the saying and actions of Muhammad (Salalahu Alaihi Wasallam) show that Jihaad definitely is to start (offensive) fighting the kuffar to make the Words of Allah the highest and to propagate (da’wa) the call of Islam. Muhammad (Salalahu Alaihi Wasallam) said:

"I have been ordered to fight the people until they bear witness that, ‘there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is His Messenger’ and they establish the prayer and the zakat. And if they do this, then from me is protected their blood and their wealth except by the right granted by Allah."

As for his (Salalahu Alaihi Wasallam) actions, they are full of actions that show Jihaad is to start the fighting. So when he went out to Badr to take the caravan belonging to the Quraysh, this was going out to fight, this is offensive – as Muhammad (Salalahu Alaihi Wasallam) initiated the action before the Quraysh. Likewise, when Muhammad (Salalahu Alaihi Wasallam) invaded Hawazin in the battle of Hunayn, when he (Salalahu Alaihi Wasallam) seiged Ta’if and the battle of Mutah to fight the Romans and the Battle of Tabuk – all of these are evidences to show that Jihaad is to start fighting kuffar (offensive). This should clarify the erroneous view that in origin Jihaad is defensive...

[Fred Nerks]

Amen!

[jan in Colorado]

Thanks for the addition USF!

[jan in Colorado]

The following is a long article, but it should be read by every one! If something doesn't change soon, our enemies will achieve their goals before 2020!

Twenty-Year Plan for USA: Islam Targets America

By Dr. Anis Shorrosh
Koenig's International News

When we immigrated from Jerusalem, Jordan in January, 1967, little did I imagine that Islam would become center-stage in world news. As my sincere interest in the growth of Islam in America intensified, I began to discuss, dialogue, and then debate Muslim leaders throughout the world from an Arab Christian's view of Islam. So far, I have had the privilege of participating in over 20 debates and discussions on every continent plus T.V. and radio. Islam Revealed was released in 1988 and is now in its 8th printing.

The following is my analysis of Islamic invasion of America, the agenda of Islamists and visible methods to take over America by the year 2020! Will Americans continue to sleep through this invasion as they did when we were attacked on 9/11?

1. Terminate America's freedom of speech by replacing it with hate crime bills state-wide and nation-wide.

2. Wage a war of words using black leaders like Louis Farrakhan, Rev. Jesse Jackson and other visible religious personalities to promote Islam as the original African-American's religion while Christianity is for the whites! Strange enough, no one tells the African-Americans that it was the Arab Muslims who captured them and sold them as slaves, neither the fact that in Arabic the word for black and slave is the same, "Abed."

3. Engage the American public in dialogues, discussions, debates in colleges, universities, public libraries, radio, TV, churches and mosques on the virtues of Islam. Proclaim how it is historically another religion like Judaism and Christianity with the same monotheistic faith.

4. Nominate Muslim sympathizers to political office for favorable legislation to Islam and support potential sympathizers by block voting.

5. Take control of as much of Hollywood, the press, TV, radio and the internet by buying the corporations or a controlling stock.

6. Yield to the fear of imminent shut-off of the lifeblood of America - the black gold. America's economy depends on oil, (1000 products are derived from oil), so does its personal and industrial transportation and manufacturing -41% comes from the Middle East.

7. Yell, "foul, out-of-context, personal interpretation, hate crime, Zionist, un- American, inaccurate interpretation of the Quran" anytime Islam is criticized or the Quran is analyzed in the public arena.

8. Encourage Muslims to penetrate the White House, specifically with Islamists who can articulate a marvelous and peaceful picture of Islam. Acquire government positions, get membership in local school boards. Train Muslims as medical doctors to dominate the medical field, research and pharmaceutical companies. Take over the computer industry. Establish Middle Eastern restaurants throughout the U.S. to connect planners of Islamization in a discreet way. Ever notice how numerous Muslim doctors in America are, when their countries need them more desperately than America?

9. Accelerate Islamic demographic growth via:
a. Massive immigration (100,000 annually since 1961)
b. No birth control whatsoever - every baby of Muslim parents is automatically a Muslim and cannot choose another religion later.
c. Muslim men must marry American women and Islamize them (10,000 annually). Then divorce them and remarry every five years - since one cannot have the Muslim legal permission to marry four at one time. This is a legal solution in America.
d. Convert angry, alienated black inmates and turn them into militants (so far 2000 released inmates have joined Al Qaida world-wide). Only a few have been captured in Afghanistan and on American soil. So far - sleeping cells!

10. Reading, writing, arithmetic and research through the American educational system, mosques and student centers (now 1500) should be sprinkled with dislike of Jews, evangelical Christians and democracy. There are 300 exclusively Muslim schools with loyalty to the Quran, not the U.S. Constitution.

11. Provide very sizeable monetary Muslim grants to colleges and universities in America to establish "Centers for Islamic studies" with Muslim directors to promote Islam in higher education institutions.

12. Let the entire world know through propaganda, speeches, seminars, local and national media that terrorists have hijacked Islam, not the truth, which is Islam hijacked the terrorists. Furthermore in January of 2002, Saudi Arabia's Embassy in Washington mailed 4500 packets of the Quran, videos, promoting Islam to America's high schools--free. They would never allow us to reciprocate.

13. Appeal to the historically compassionate and sensitive Americans for sympathy and tolerance towards the Muslims in America who are portrayed as mainly immigrants from oppressed countries.

14. Nullify America's sense of security by manipulating the intelligence community with misinformation. Periodically terrorize Americans of impending attacks on bridges, tunnels, water supplies, airports, apartment buildings and malls. (We have experienced this too often since 9-11.)

15. Form riots and demonstrations in the prison system demanding Islamic Sharia as the way of life, not American's justice system.

16. Open numerous charities throughout the U.S. but use the funds to support Islamic terrorism with American dollars.

17. Raise interest in Islam on America's campuses by insisting that freshman take at least one course on Islam. Be sure that the writer is a bonafide American, Christian, scholarly and able to cover up the violence in the Quran and express the peaceful, spiritual and religious aspect only.

18. Unify the numerous Muslim lobbies in Washington, mosques, Islamic student centers, educational organizations, magazines and papers by internet and an annual convention to coordinate plans, propagate the faith and engender news in the media of their visibility.

19. Send intimidating messages and messengers to the outspoken individuals who are critical of Islam and seek to eliminate them by hook or crook.

20. Applaud Muslims as loyal citizens of the US by spotlighting their voting record as the highest percentage of all minority and ethic groups in America.

THIS IS ISLAM!

GOD BLESS AMERICA

[Lucky Dog]

My turn for a long post…

Hence IMHO, the need to back Hashemite armies and engage on an intense behind the scenes campaign to humiliate and delegitimize the entire Saud/wahabbi establishment.

From my earlier post # 88: Additionally, in terms of the current conflict, few could argue that the Islamic radicals could not be fairly easily dealt with militarily and/or politically, were it not for the fact that the Islamic world controls a significant portion of the planet’s petroleum resources (a huge economic lever).

Although possible, I do not see the Jordanians under the Hashemites invading Saudi Arabia in the near term, if at all, absent an internal, violent Saudi Arabian revolution. Additionally, even if they did invade, their military campaign would probably not be a short one, even with an external coalition’s help. Consequently, there would be a huge disruption to the world’s oil supply (probably created by the Saudi’s themselves) that would reek havoc on, not just the US, but the entire world’s economy.

The world (most especially, Europe and Japan, literally for the sake of national survival) would be forced to intervene on the side of stability and continuity of oil supplies, i.e., the current Saudi regime. Additionally, the pressure on the US to do likewise, both, from our international trading partners and internal sources, would be irresistible. The current Saudi regime, both knows this, and strategically depends upon it.

From my earlier post # 101: …deposing the Saudis and their support for Wahabbism in favor of the Hashemite dynasty, I see it as possibly desirable in the short term but unrealistically misguided for the long term.

Orchestrating a clandestine campaign against the Saudi’s/Wahabbi’s with intent of fomenting an internal, successful rebellion would be next to impossible.

From my earlier post # 144: The chief problem is the one of [the US] being the “invisible puppet master” ...

The Saudi’s internal/external intelligence apparatus would, most certainly, detect such an effort and trace its source quickly. No doubt, the Saudi’s would, then, manipulate oil resources as economic punishment. Furthermore, there seems to be no shortage in the US of unscrupulous, political opportunists who are willing to “leak” anything, of any classification, for short term political gain regardless of adverse impact on US national security. Public knowledge of such a formerly, clandestine overthrow effort would generate huge, international political and economic repercussions. Additionally, not only internal, opposition, political party opportunism, but the Fifth Column, PC crowd, would force its abandonment and, most probably, political defeat of the sponsoring political group. Consequently, once such a clandestine overthrow effort become known, its impact would be totally counter productive.

Therefore, your proposal of …back[ing] Hashemite armies and engage[ing] on an intense behind the scenes campaign to humiliate and delegitimize the entire Saud/wahabbi establishment seems very implausible, if not completely impossible.

From my earlier post # 88: … the obvious economic warfare approach is to remove their “lever.”

To achieve “removing their economic lever,” we must overcome a number of obstacles. First, the Fifth Column, PC crowd/environmental extremists along with their media partners must immediately be neutered in their opposition to greater US energy independence. After sufficiently muting opposition, in the short term, rapid, oil exploration/drilling in ANWR, off the coasts of California and western Florida must proceed immediately. More oil refineries must be built and older ones updated. Additionally, development of shale oil technology must be vigorously pursued and exploitation of coal deposits with cleaner combustion technology must also be vigorously pursued. Slightly longer term, construction/commissioning of numerous, nuclear power plants must be rapidly accelerated. Finally, the development and economic viability of alternative energy sources such as hydrogen, solar, wind, wave, etc., must be pursued as well.

The above proposals are not near term solutions. However, they appear to be the only politically and economically viable alternatives to the current world situation that will not precipitate a worldwide, military conflict and/or international economic collapse. Once the “economic lever” is removed from the Islamists, their particular brand of violent jihad will become a militarily manageable nuisance rather than a worldwide threat.

Have a nice weekend.

[Supernatural]

Venezuela is also planning on undermining the U.S. by cutting off their oil supply if the Arab supply becomes cut off.

We have many enemies out there looking to take the U.S. down. Crunch time soon and we will find out who are friends really are.

[Lucky Dog]

We have many enemies out there looking to take the U.S. down. Crunch time soon and we will find out who are friends really are.

Sadly, I fear you are correct. Nonetheless, if the US vigorously pursued the alternatives I outlined above, even if Chavez cut off his country's oil supplies to us, its impact would be minor. Additionally, with sufficient development of those alternatives, the US could not only become energy independent but, potentially, an energy exporter. Such a status would loosen the Arabian strangle hold on European and Japanese economies as well.

[Wombat101]

Actually, you can't have a pluralistic democratic society if you kill the "pluralistics". The Armenian genocide is the antithesis of "democratic", which you means you have to question the depths and legitimacy of Turkey's "democratization". Were it not for the Army, as a stabilizing force continuing the legacy of Attaturk, Turkey would be much closer to Lebanon. We're (the West) willing to accept a Turkey that appears democratic (if only at gunpoint) because the alternatives are far worse.

Remember, we're dealing with a culture in which "might makes right". A "democratic" Army is only a means to an end, you still have to change the underlying culture.

As for the "three pilars of Western Civilization" that I've mentioned, you'll notice that all three were extremely violent periods in Western History, and mostly "intra-mural" violence at that. Islamist has not fought Islamist in the same way as Protestant fought Catholic. it was only after 200 or so years of useless, self-defeating religious strife that both sides came to accomodate each other.

Until Muzzies start kiling muzzies with the same fervor and on the same scale, with the same scale of misery that comes with it, the conditions aren't right to even begin trying to insinuate something like "tolerance" into their society.
I, for one, wouldn't mind inciting such intra-mural violence for exactly that sort of thing: as a precursor for transforming the prevailing culture.

I wouldn't mind seeing 200 years of Islamic sectarian turmoil on an (Islamic-) world scale, if it meant my progeny didn't have to worry about being blown up at their desks one sunny, September morning.

[Just A Nobody]

Thanks for the ping Jan. Working on catching up from yesterday!

[Proud Infidel]

Brilliant analysis! Our bag of options are clear.

We live in very interesting times where the Saudis have "radicalized" 80% of US mosques with their cash and wahabbi brand of salafyism (see here and here ) and have done the same in many isamic countries, constructing beautiful enormous marble cladded mosques, engaging in their dawah and controlling zakat collections. If anythings becoming remotely close to claiming the title of "mainstream" islam within the many sects and divisions, this may just be it.

They're on to a head start and the liberals will be there to help our enemies.

We have already waited too long to act, Saudi Arabia is a terrorist state and has even been raising funds in public to reward suicide bombers. Plan B sounds good to me.

[tonycavanagh]

Whats your take on this.

Will it be overstretch.

Can we gear a military organization to fighting a global war on terror with all the potential trouble spots from the Middle East to Africa, Central Asia the Caucasus and South East Asia, as well as still be able to maintain a credible fighting force to face a conventional threat such as China.

These operations will be small unit pacification type operations convoys patrols search and destroy ops.

With heavy emphasis on this type of training and with so many troops rotating how will this effect the Army's training for its more conventional role.

Also will the Army be able to afford equipment for both roles in sufficient numbers.

[USF]

Sorry, I'm getting loads of pings and replies and missed this the first time round. Here goes...

Although possible, I do not see the Jordanians under the Hashemites invading Saudi Arabia in the near term, if at all, absent an internal, violent Saudi Arabian revolution.

Orchestrating a clandestine campaign against the Saudi’s/Wahabbi’s with intent of fomenting an internal, successful rebellion would be next to impossible.

That is why I'm advocating continually airing the dirt on the KSA and their ideology along with pushing the Sauds to reform faster, to their breaking point if need be, making the comments about the limits of democracy in post #108. I want them to reform, or implode so others have a reason to go in and take the hijaz. If they reform fast, they stand a greater chance of imploding, and the demographic clock is ticking (post #129). I'll get into this a little more later.. but essentially they need to reform, and fast. If they push thru reforms that stay in place and work in our favor, great; and if the bold experiment implodes on them, it's also great (post #108 again) as we have not only a strategy, but also a back up strategy to address the root cause - Islamic ideology - and use their centers of their belief system against them. The hijaz can be separated, from the rest of the country if need be, or we can prove their delusional belief system and its end of times prophecies wrong and eradicate two of the five pillars of their faith. Any "islam" that remains will have to go thru one hell of a revision, or simply a revision in hell.

There is a load of dirt out there on the Saudi Royals which has been hushed up or kept out of their media. I've heard stories that I found incredible at first, from some very trustworthy and highly placed people that had access to some of the important Saudi power players. I can't mention names unfortunately, though at times like this I wish I could. If a campaign was necessary to undermine the Sauds, and strain their relationship with the ulema, there is ammo out there which will come in useful. The cartoon farce is another very simple example of how we can exploit their own beliefs against them in the simplest of ways to bring out the worst of jihadi element to face their own riot police and cause widespread civil unrest. Much greater "desecrations" can and should be exploited on future occasions, IMHO.

Additionally, even if they did invade, their military campaign would probably not be a short one, even with an external coalition’s help. Consequently, there would be a huge disruption to the world’s oil supply (probably created by the Saudi’s themselves) that would reek havoc on, not just the US, but the entire world’s economy.

Similar to Iraq situation, and why we need to finish the job there first, to buffer some of the worse effects on the oil supply by raising production and restarting exploration. This is the "hudna" time I give Al Saud to deal with its mess. There will never ever, be a "good time" to disrupt energy supplies.

The world (most especially, Europe and Japan, literally for the sake of national survival) would be forced to intervene on the side of stability and continuity of oil supplies....

Agree, but the same also applied to Iraq. They wont like what we do but breathe a sigh of relief when it's over, and ask for stability then, even if they did not join in.

I'm glad you brought this up tho'.. I've seen the situation across EUrope with my own eyes and its not a pretty picture. The immigration and the effects of the islamic resurgence there combined with a liberal "PC" climate is weaking the EUropean desire to back the US militarily or politically. This will become more and more acute as the years pass, and America slogs its way thru the "long war." The effects of liberalism and the "PC" culture pervades their mentality, and especially of the political elites (I'm not just referring to those on an individual national level but of the EU/Brussels elites as well) is having the effect of turning them from leftist EUnicks to EUnuchs, to EUrabians as the years pass.

Brussels aims to consolidate its political power with such grand ideas as the emergence of the EU's common foreign and security policy (CFSP), and common security and defense policy (CESDP), and its drawing power to make day to day laws and decisions away from national capitals towards Brussels itself where PC "multiculturalists" soothe "cultural" differences in the interests of "harmony." The longer we leave this situation of not confronting islamic ideology unresolved and the demographics to take their course, the further Europe will slip away from us and the possibility of them being part of any Hashemite or US lead coalition. Sam Huntington made a perfect case for the dynamics involved in his "Clash of civilizations." A couple of articles (note these polls will reflect only those who are brave enough to admit their thoughts to the kuffar) UK poll: 37% of Muslims in Britain think British Jews are a "legitimate target", 40% of (British)Muslims want sharia law in UK and 'The day is coming when British Muslims form a state within a state.'What is worth noting in EUrope, is the trend of western born children of immigrants who have no experience of the horrors of islamic rule are more prone to fighting for the islamic cause at home, having a rose tinted view on islam.

China, and the East Asian states evolving out of the failure of communism are a huge emerging market for raw materials, autos, hi-tech and fuel, is going to put ever increasing strains on the worlds oil supply in the decades to come, very likely lapping up any increased output in oil production, while also looking for alternative sources to for its consumption.

To achieve “removing their economic lever,” we must overcome a number of obstacles. First, the Fifth Column, PC crowd/environmental extremists along with their media partners must immediately be neutered in their opposition to greater US energy independence. After sufficiently muting opposition, in the short term, rapid, oil exploration/drilling in ANWR, off the coasts of California and western Florida must proceed immediately. More oil refineries must be built and older ones updated. Additionally, development of shale oil technology must be vigorously pursued and exploitation of coal deposits with cleaner combustion technology must also be vigorously pursued. Slightly longer term, construction/commissioning of numerous, nuclear power plants must be rapidly accelerated. Finally, the development and economic viability of alternative energy sources such as hydrogen, solar, wind, wave, etc., must be pursued as well.

Nothing I would disagree with in that last paragraph as it makes perfect sense, but of course problems will almost certainly come with neutering the LLL opposition first, secondly and probably the most important, the impact on the the time frame for implimenting a bold plan of action in Saudi and keeping an multilateral alliance togther for this, while hoping nobody else goes down the nuclear path in the meantime. Or worst case, the Saudis themselves deciding to acquire nukes while we are preoccupied elsewhere.

Saudi Arabia, the epicenter of islamic evil, will carry on funding islam and terror ideology around the world and using its role as the "custodian of the holy sites" to legitimize its message. Their population feeding off a diet of islamic hatred is booming despite their economic modernization, the vast majority of Saudis being under 30 (appx two thirds by most accounts), and of them close to 40% are under 14 years old (compared to about half that in the US) getting more anti-American by the day, and this is pool the next generation of jihadis will emerge from. Even if the House of Saud stop directly funding wahabbis indirect funding will continue, via the general ecomomic boom, clandestine zakat and because of long established extended family and tribal ties. Cutting off wahabbi funding within the kingdom itself saps power away from both the House of Saud, and the wahabbi establishment, letting the other salafis who have less or no allegiance or influence with the House of Saud make gains.

I now see where you and I may differ, and why our proposed plans (call my references to Saudi "phase one") reflect this. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to really come down to this:

1. Essentially, I would like to move on a faster time frame to take on the center of the ideology itself and to get what I see as an inevitable conflict going now rather than later. I see many of the terms favoring us more during the next few years (especially during the next decade) then they will in the future when the evils of islmaic ideology grow deeper roots in our soil, as it continues to do so in EUrope, Asia, and as the ummah itself "reawakens," continues to grow in strenght and one islamic leader after another emerges to seek nukes or other WMD to use against us. Hence I have to propose a bolder plan. Perhaps it's closer to Ann Coulters "we should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity" than you're comfortable with.

2. The very real possibility of the KSA and Saud rule imploding due to it's own "deal with the devil" getting out of hand together with it's rapidly changing demographics (my #108) needs to be addressed and planned for.

I wish simply airing the truth about islam and the perverted Mad Mo and his ideology would wake up the LLL, PC crowd and muslim alike, allowing the latter to look into an alternative message, but due to the lack of the desired results so fara nd knowing time is not in our favor, I conceive and propose a strategy to take down the very heart of the islamic ideological factory, and use their own institutions and delusions against them. Mohammads ideology is spreading like a cancer, and radical therapy is needed now so the next generation do not face an even greater threat.