Traitor or ally: gospel sheds new light on Judas (New ancient manuscript found)

AFP via Yahoo ^ | Apr 6, 2006 | AFP

[wideawake]

No. You really don't. You still just want to give me your opinion...which I never asked for to begin with. Thanks all the same though. You'll have to find sombody else to spar with this time. :-) Nice try though! I'm sure you'll drag somebody in.

You told a silly lie and I called you on it.

It's not a matter of my opinion or your opinion: you asserted a demonstrable falsehood (whether knowingly or ignorantly) and I corrected you.

Then I tried to examine just how misinformed you were in general, and oddly enough, you refused to discuss it - on a discussion forum of all places.

That's a pretty good sign that you're just a troll.

[Chanticleer]

Or, if you write something, and it survives a really long time, it must be Gospel!

This was a document written by gnostics, a group denounced in the New Testament. They believed that salvation was brought about through self-knowledge or the spiritual knowledge of the divine in one's self. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, gnosticism is:

The doctrine of salvation by knowledge. This definition, based on the etymology of the word (gnosis "knowledge", gnostikos, "good at knowing"), is correct as far as it goes, but it gives only one, though perhaps the predominant, characteristic of Gnostic systems of thought. Whereas Judaism and Christianity, and almost all pagan systems, hold that the soul attains its proper end by obedience of mind and will to the Supreme Power, i.e. by faith and works, it is markedly peculiar to Gnosticism that it places the salvation of the soul merely in the possession of a quasi-intuitive knowledge of the mysteries of the universe and of magic formulae indicative of that knowledge. Gnostics were "people who knew", and their knowledge at once constituted them a superior class of beings, whose present and future status was essentially different from that of those who, for whatever reason, did not know.

Given this belief, is it any surprise that they would maintain Judas did what he did because of special knowledge and understand with Christ? I'm not Catholic, and frankly, I don't spend a lot of time contemplating Judas' fate. What irritates me is watching news anchors on every station spouting gibberish about Scripture which many of them have never read and certainly don't believe.

[hiredhand]

Good heavens how you remind me of a Bantam rooster that we used to have! He used to jump into the middle of things where he had no business as well. Please go away...you're starting to bother me. I mean it too...GO AWAY. Go bother somebody else. I'm in no mood.

Hey Darkwing...check out this guy's posting history. :-) ...since he accuses me of being a troll.

[wideawake]

Good heavens how you remind me of a Bantam rooster that we used to have! He used to jump into the middle of things where he had no business as well. Please go away...you're starting to bother me. I mean it too...GO AWAY. Go bother somebody else. I'm in no mood.

I have no intention of leaving a thread I have every right to be on.

Hey Darkwing...check out this guy's posting history. :-) ...since he accuses me of being a troll.

I've been on FR for more than seven years. I've seen more than my share of cowardly post-a-stupid-comment-and-run crybabies like yourself.

It's hilarious that you have to ping a buddy to help you dodge a conversation.

[Gvl_M3]

The source for my stuff? My lecture notes, hows that? Seriously, the matter is beyond reproach by any serious scholar of ancient manuscripts (biblical or otherwise). Many people will state that the Bible can not be verified, nor can its authenticity be ascertained. That's poppycock.

---

Thank you so much for your lengthy post.

Without having to take your course :), where can someone go to find this type of information. As an engineer by nature, I like to empower myself with knowledge and this is one area of Christianity that I have very little knowledge. They don't teach us the history of the Bible in Sunday School ;)

If you can recommend a book or two, but probably not a college text book, because I don't need help falling asleep at night :)

[hiredhand]

One of the things that's always amazed me is how the lost simply can't accept that God permitted Judas to do what he did.

Isiah 53:10 says "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;..." So then the Lord permitted Judas to do what he did, but it also pleased the Lord to put Yeshua to death?!

Yep. It's a fact. There's a breadth and depth that people grapple with here. It stems from our lack of true belief of God's SOVREIGNTY. We "say" that we believe it, but our own inability to accept that He is truly sovereign proves otherwise.

People have been making up excuses for wrongness of heart (unrighteousness) for a long time. I suppose Adam was the first when the Lord asked him, "What is this you have done?" there at the tree with Eve after they had eaten the fruit. ...and he said?....

He said "... "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate." So Adam in effect blamed God who gave him the woman, and the woman blamed the serpent...and so our spiral of making up excuses throughout history for being unrighteous began.

This "story" about Judas is no different. It stems from somebody's inability to accept God's sovereignty. He owns everything, holds everything, orders all that we see (and don't see), and yes He did permit Judas to betray Yeshua, just as it "pleased Him" to "bruise" Yeshua.

This article about Judas, and probably this entire thread stems not from people's inability to "understand", but rather to simply "accept". We don't have to understand in order to have faith, but we "should" accept. I say "should" because if the Lord is the Lord then there are really no prerequisites that WE must fill before He can do anything. He can do anything He wants, whether we "accept" or not.

This is simply another issue of people who can't "accept". I don't know if this writing was produced within 300 years of Yeshua's death. The truth is that I'll probably never know other than what somebody else tells me about this, and I just don't trust most people that much. :-) But people haven't changed that much and if they were making up excuses in the Garden, then it only stands that they were making up excuses in 300 A.D., and we know for certain that they're making up excuses today.

I agree with you. It's not worth spending a lot of time rehashing Judas and what he did. It's a "blip on the radar" ...so to speak. He was a bad guy, like so many other bad guys, and he did something bad, and according to the records hung himself...and his guts gushed out...or something like that. Just because God knew that he was a bad guy, and let him be a bad guy doesn't make him any different than any other bad guy throughout the ages. Just because somebody wrote something contrary about this particular bad guy doesn't really change a whole lot.

[hiredhand]

I didn't ask you to leave the thread. I asked you LEAVE ME ALONE. I've also asked the admin mods to now tell you to LEAVE ME ALONE.

I know you "think" you're overeducated...at least with respect to medieval history or some such nonesense, but given that you communicate in the English language quite well I figured you'd understand the directive, "LEAVE ME ALONE".

But I guess not...oh well. I'm sure that somehow...one way or another, you'll get the hint.

[wideawake]

I didn't ask you to leave the thread. I asked you LEAVE ME ALONE. I've also asked the admin mods to now tell you to LEAVE ME ALONE.

LOL! If you're posting to me, I'll post to you if the mood strikes me.

I'm sure the mods are very impressed by your whining.

[hiredhand]

whatever...

[raygun]

Its funny how everybody concludes based on my writing that I'm the instructor: I'm the student for crying out loud!

As far as sourcing, sorry I can't help you (other than textbook cures for extreme insomnia). Clearly, the material already sourced should be consulted (most especially Sir Kenyon's writings). I'd also reccomend Will Durante. However, he may not be such a good source with respect to the manuscripts.

However, there is one reference work that I can wholeheartedly reccomend: Josh McDowell. The definitive work that should be in the libary of anybody seeking the Truth should be "The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict". That is fully annotated, footnoted and bibliographed. Frankly, if nothing else the introduction is fully worth the purchase price (and mirrors Sir William Ramsey's experience).

What I wrote is merely a survey of a survey of Josh's work. There's no way Evidence That Demands a Verdict is light reading, except maybe for those that solve quadratic equations as a hobby (I don't know). Do not try to "read" this book. It would be akin to trying to read the Physical Handbook of Chemistry

Here's a list of reference material that would be germane:

Ramm, Bernard, Protestant Christian Evidences, Chicago: Moody Press, 1957

Wilson, Robert Dick, Which Bible? Ed. By David Otis Fuller

Smith, Wilbur M. The Incomparable Book, Minneapolis: Beacon Publication, 1961

Morris, Henry M. Many Infallible Proofs, Creation-Life Publishers, San Diego, CA, 1974 McDowell, Josh. A Ready Defense, Here's Life Publishers, Inc., CA 1990

Montgomery, John W. History and Christianity, Downers Grove, IL, Inter-Varsity Press, 1971

I pray that helps your intellectual pursuits. Nevertheless, its my sincere prayer that the Spirit convict you of the veracity of His Word, and that you come to know and accept Christ as your personal saviour before its too late.

[Gvl_M3]

Thank you.

I assumed you were the instructor based on your comment that you got this information from your Lecture Notes. Sounded more like what an instructor would say for some reason.

Where are you studying if you don't mind me asking?

[SunkenCiv]

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