Posted on 04/10/2006 5:52:04 AM PDT by IrishMike
Not to draw too fine a point -- but.
Our military is quite proficient at "executing"...
Winners "hanging" losers has been practiced by men at war since the beginning of time.
Our current military WILL execute by any means ordered - if a lawful order to execute is given.
Do you consider the 10 Nazis hung by the neck until dead as ordered by the Military Tribunal comprised of the winning side of WWII, as having been "lynched" or justly "executed"?
Same question about the more numerous Japanese war criminals -- executed after the war - presumably most by military forces after condemnation by Military Tribunals..
In either case - weren't they lawful orders - issued by the WINNERS..
The "lynching's" referred to earlier, are CERTAIN to occur if the horror of Civil War returns to the U.S...
To deny such is naive......and exceedingly reckless.
Semper Fi
I'm glad to see you've retracted your earlier position that our military isn't trained to execute...
However -- you're still being naive when you state that the last time our military executed anyone was over 60 years ago...
I can tell you with absolute certainty - that military "executions" by any definition you care to use were conducted far inside that timeframe and very probably up to the present...
Your desire to focus on the terms "mob" and "lynch" to describe persons and events during civil conflicts, doesn't make them any less likely to be the reality of civil war.
One of the strongestest reasons Civil War must be avoided - is that the strongest or the most violent is likely to win....and the niceities of "law" or "right" will not be observed....
Semper Fi
I've retracted nothing. My first statement was "Our military is trained to kill, not execute." In my subsequent response to you I stated "American servicemen do not "execute" captives until those captives have been sentenced to death by a formal military tribunal." Currently, the military carries out the death sentence by lethal injection. I don't know what your military background is, but unless you can show me that our military trains its personnel in the art of killing people via lethal injection, your assertion that our military trains its people to execute is ridiculous, unsupportable BS. However, I did do a little more research on the topic and discovered the last military execution happened in 1961. He was hung at Fort Leavenworth after being found guilty of rape and murder. Prior to that last execution which took place 45 years ago, there were a total of 135 people executed since 1916. There are currently 9 convicted prisoners on military death row. But you contend our military trains its personnel to be executioners? Give me the details. I want to know where and when and who. I've been serving since 1985. I've been in combat. Somehow I missed my execution training. Where did you receive yours?
"Your desire to focus on the terms "mob" and "lynch" to describe persons and events during civil conflicts, doesn't make them any less likely to be the reality of civil war."
It is you who support the ridiculous notion of an upcoming civil war. And it is you who asserts there will be inevitable lynchings. It is also you who somehow tries to equate illegal lynchings with legal capital punishment. And then you smear the service of all of our military members by roughly equating what they do to mass lynchings taking place in a post civil war anarchy. And you call me naive?! I'll admit, I was naive to the fact that people like you are out there. Thank you for the enlightenment.
Second, lets address your confusion about language...
Execution -- while it refers ESPECIALLY to the legal killing of one - it does not EXCLUSIVELY imply the legally ordered killing after a trial or "military tribunal"...
The synonym for execute, is KILL.
Anyone trained to kill by ANY means -- is trained to execute... So don't get so hung up on the term.
One does not need "lethal injection", the electric chair or the gallows to "execute"...
The circumstances of the "execution" under the applicable ROE in one's AO will determine the consequences under the UCMJ.
I see the your research into military sanctioned "executions" -- didn't include any reference to the Phoenix program of my era..
I can offer no first hand personal comment on the facts of the Phoenix program, but would not find it too difficult to accept as truthful.
Check it out -- and imagine that perhaps this may not have been the only sanctioned "execution" of "targeted individuals" without benefit of "legal trial or niceties"...
Finally, I will attribute to careless reading on your part, that my comments were intended to slander or besmirch in any manner the service of our past or current warriors...
Too many dearly beloved brothers have their names perpetually engraved upon that wall on the mall and in my heart -- and I would be deeply offended to be accused of slandering them or those that followed them.
I would enjoy continuing this conversation, because I believe it's important that all viewpoints with historical relevance be included...
Semper Fi
No offense, but I really don't remember corresponding with you before.
"Jumping to conclusions, attributing motive and accusing folks of things that are furthest from their mind..."
Which is exactly what you do in rest of your post. Let's take a look... You say, "First, let me assure you I am not championing or looking forward to a Civil War..." I never said you did. I said "It is you who support the ridiculous notion of an upcoming civil war." You do. And you confirm it again in your last post. I quote..."I suspect a civil war is more likely than you acknowledge." That you "suffer no illusions about the cruelty and horror that scenario will yield" is completely irrelevant to the point of this discussion, which concerns whether or not our military consists of trained "executioners".
"I suspect we "grunts" on the ground have a greater fear and loathing of that scenario, than most fly boys like yourself that may have gotten as close as 10,000 feet to the slaughter under the jungle canopy."
Again, your point here is irrelevant to the discussion. Neither the grunt nor the flyboy is trained to execute anybody. Which takes us to your next point...the meaning of "execution". Here is how Websters defines "execution"
1 : the act or process of executing : PERFORMANCE
2 : a putting to death especially as a legal penalty
3 : the process of enforcing a legal judgment (as against a debtor); also : a judicial writ directing such enforcement
4 : the act or mode or result of performance
5 archaic : effective or destructive action -- usually used with do (as soon as day came, we went out to see what execution we had done -- Daniel Defoe)
The word "execution" is a noun. The word "kill", used in this context, is a verb. When you look up "kill" in Websters, it does list "execute" as a synonym. But it states..."EXECUTE stresses putting to death as a legal penalty (executed by lethal gas)." So again, I ask you, does the military train its members to be killers (my contention) or executioners (your contention)? Why is that important? Because the act of executing someone implies they are no longer a combatant. Instead, they are a captive. They are being killed as a form of punishment. There is no training required to kill an unarmed captive. The last time our military conducted a legal execution was in 1961, and if members of our military are executing people without a legal trial, then they are violating the UCMJ and the Geneva Conventions. They become criminals themselves. When you imply that our military consists of trained executioners who will "execute by any means ordered," you are in effect saying our military is full of people who have been trained to kill captives. That simply is not true. And it grossly diminishes the purpose and capability of our military.
"I see the your research into military sanctioned "executions" -- didn't include any reference to the Phoenix program of my era.."
Sooooo, somehow you believe a CIA sponsored program from the 1960's indicates our military currently trains its members to be executioners?!?!
"Finally, I will attribute to careless reading on your part, that my comments were intended to slander or besmirch in any manner the service of our past or current warriors..."
Well, you should attribute it to the reality that that is exactly what you are doing. You are openly stating our military is filled with trained executioners. You use a CIA run assassination campaign from the 60's as your "proof". Why not just say the actions of a few soldiers at Mi Lai are proof that our military is trained to kill women and children? You smear hundreds of thousands of former and current US servicemen with a label they don't deserve. All as part of your ridiculous notion that this nation is on the verge of a collapse into civil war.
Look, I don't really care if you believe this country is slipping toward civil war. People are free to believe whatever they want. Some people believe aircraft contrails are a new world order conspiracy to chemically placate the worlds' population. That doesn't make it a fact, but if they want to believe it... When you first posted to me on this thread you specifically quoted my statement that "Our military is trained to kill, not execute." Your only support of that is apparently a CIA sponsored program from 40 years ago. With that, I rest my case on that point, and frankly, I don't care what you believe with regard to an impending US civil war. But I do ask that you try to leave the US military out of your clairvoyant speculations. By painting our servicemen as eager executioners, you slander millions of the finest Americans this nation has ever produced.
You come across as a naive argumentative jerk in blinders, who must insult those with different opinions or experiences.
That which you have not seen, you may deny.
Fortunately, others see for themselves.
Semper Fi
Interesting comment from someone whose initial input to the discussion was "Not to draw too fine a point -- but. Our military is quite proficient at "executing"..." What exactly were you doing if not discussing semantics?
Regardless, despite being a "naive argumentative jerk in blinders" I did consider the volumes of evidence you've provided to support your contentions that A. our military is full of trained executioners, and B. our nation is collapsing toward civil war...and I remain unconvinced of either. For that matter, I couldn't even find where I "insulted" you because of our difference of opinion. In fact, I specifically said I don't care what you believe. That is not an insult. It is an honest statement of fact.
Perhaps the urgent warnings on this topic from folks like you and Travis will be more convincing when they are supported by something more than endless spamming (in Travis' case) or statements that amount to "believe me because I say it's true" (in your case). Until then, don't be surprised when people appear "ineducable" to your cause.
There you go again....
Insisting on distortion, baseless accusations and petty insults....
Your "precision and style" of discussion reminds we why we retreated to our deepest bunkers when informed the Air Force was overhead.....
I guess when the only tool at your disposal is a hammer, everything and everyone looks like a nail....
Please don't waste either of our time by responding...
I'll do my best to ignore you..
Semper Fi
bttt
Excellent post!
LOL, that sums up Travis perfectly!
BTTT
And when every vote is needed, when every supporter must be marshalled for assistance, one fewer will be there.
Or more.
Who's vote? Travis? Travis hates Republicans and rats. His vote was never expected or recieved.
Isn't a vigilante someone like Charles Bronson who takes the law into his own hands when the US code is not enforced, and what is the effective difference between the Minutemen and the Neighborhood Watch groups which every law enforcement organization endorces? Seems to me the President should thank the minutemen for doing for the
Border Patrol what faith-based organizations do for welfare service. They are involved in civic activities, well within the white area of the law.
The post you responded to stated my belief: "I don't think Minutemen are vigilantes." What more do you want to know?
Powerful historic patriotic quote.
Thx.
Powerful historic patriotic quote.
Thx.
Insurrection?
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