AK-47 inventor: U.S. troops in Iraq prefer my rifle to theirs

Reuters ^ | April 17 2006

[archy]

Re: "...a nasty very LOUD and distinct "CLICK!!" when removing the safety!! "

yeah... but Hollywood LOVES it, don't they?

Sort of like the cowboy who racks the lever of his '94 or the Detective cocking the hammer of his double-action .38 when confronting bad guys... it sounds so MENACING!

I was once present at an informal affair when a drunk who had sideswiped a parked car came to advise the occupants that they shouldn't have left it legally parked on the street in front of their home where some poor drunken driver might bump into it. Upon finding out that the car's owner was a smallish female, he began to get really nasty, and I began thinking about the folding stock M1 carbine I knew she had in her bedroom, just in case the guy and his pals decided to push in the screen door.

No need. I was just about to cross the bedroom door threshold, when I heard a very distinctive whack! followed almost immediately by a similar but slightly different snack! And she had the immediate situation taken care of.

No, not a shotgun. One of these. Yes, they do indeed sound menacing. Small wonder Swiss troops haven't been in a shootin' war in some 400 years.

[archy]

Do you have any experience with the Wolf steel case rounds? Anyone feel free to chime in. It would be great to save some bucks with the price of brass what it is.

The Wolf steel-cased ammo works fine in those weapons meant to use steel-cased ammo, the AK and it's semiauto derivitives in particular. And it works very well in most bolt action rifles, since the Germans and Czechs fielded steel-cased ammo in WWII. The Russians have also successfully fielded steel-case ammo for their 7,62x54r Mosin-Nagant rifles and belt-fed MGs for 65 years now. It works.

.303 Lee Enfields seem to be an exception, possibly due to action stretch- their locking lugs are located at the rear of the weapon. British experiments with .303 steel cases [also for Bren, Vickers and rebarrelled .30 Browning MGs] were unsuccessful and recent Wolf steel-cased commercial offerings have not included the venerable .303. [A pity, since it shares bullet diameters and preferred weights with the 7,62x53r Russian cartridge]

During WWII, the Evansville Chrysler plant stamped out literally millions of steel cases for .45 ammo for Thompson and M3 SMGs; it also functioned acceptably with the M1911 pistol though some reports of broken extractors were noted.

And that is the most common complaint with those using steel-cased ammo in weapons not originally intended for it. Happily, modern formulations of polymer coatings have come a long way from the early German and Russian versions that used lacquer as a waterproofing and rust inhibitor on the cases. And some of them smell pretty bad if left chambered in a hot weapon for a while.

But the use of steel-cased Wolf in an SKS or AK is like bread with butter, just meant for each other. And if yours is some other, note that Wolf is coming out with a line of *gold* ammunition with brass cases, which should make the reloaders happier. Made by the Prvi Partisan plant in Serbia, it's near match-grade quality, so expect it to be a little more expensive than the steel-cased stuff. We'll see....

[Little Ray]

Just goes to show - it ain't the rifles, its the troops that win the battles.

[USMCPOP]

My son didn't have any real experience from an urban combat perspective, but he was studying mechanical engineering and was intrigued by the AK47 and it's variants. As he said "The AK does have its weaknesses, but I do prefer its balance and handling qualities to those of the M16 series." He hated cleaning the M-16, thought that the direct gas action was the worst feature of the gun, though he liked the accuracy. He scored a "perfect" at 500 yards in boot camp on a windy day. Check www.karl.linn.net for some photos of various weapons in use in Iraq, and some confiscated ones.

I do wish the 6.8 SPC or a 6.5 MM cartridge woulkd be adopted. And a rifle like the AR-180 or something simliar would be more reliable.

[xsrdx]

An AR15 can put more rounds in more targets faster in the hands of a competent user than any assault weapon of its time, which is the genius of its design.

Dead on, and the single greatest reason why 556mm rifles remain dominant.

Those who do not appreciate this fact, advocating a return to the battle rifle, do not understand the nature of modern infantry combat.

It's not about penetration, range, or even lethality - hitting first is paramount.

The AKM is a fine rifle, for the poorly trained and undisciplined fighter. It's an also ran compared to the modern M16 series.

[I got the rope]

Why does his design look like the German "Sturmgewehr"?

[JDoutrider]

placemarker

[I got the rope]

AWWW you beat me to it. someone should post a pic and a schematic of the bolt.

[I got the rope]

LOL. Good post.

[ozzymandus]

The steel cases aren't the problem, the lacquer on the cases is. It melts and sticks in the chamber. German machine gunners always tried to find brass cased ammo, because having a plugged barrel in your MG-42 when facing a human wave or Russians is a bad experience.
The only real problem with steel cases that I know of is that it's hard on the extractors of 1911-type pistols.

[raygun]

What I know about the M-16 is that it is a high tech weapon designed with specific requirements and specific mission to fullfill. That Congress in its infinite wisdom chose not to heed the designer's recommendation concerning ammo is a separate issue.

The M-16 has an extremely high rate of fire on full auto (able to empty a full clip in 1/2 second). That's why later variants have a three round limiter. Thinking being that a squad of soldiers firing in concert can lay down much withering fire, that opposing forces have to go through (and for a longer distance), than with other weapons. There is a certain psychological issue at play here too, the enemy knowing that they have to withstand accurate fire from 200 yds out (they will pay dearly for any assualt).

Moreover, the M-16 is a high-velocity round. The instructor told us that when you fire the gun by the time you hear the report, the bullet is already 100 yds down-range. Kinetic energy has a square in the equation. You'll never find a spent M-16 bullet because of this reason. An M-16 round that impacts anything substantial is going to shatter. So an opponent may get hit in the shoulder, but fragments could be exiting anywhere (knee for example). A few M-16 rounds are most certainly lethal. One well place round shattering and making sausage inside the rib-cage is going to be lethal also.

I also liked the virtually no recoil thing the M-16 has going for it.

The AK-47 on the other hand is a much heavier round. Furthermore, it has a tendancy to tumble in flight so its accuracy will not be as high as the M-16. However, a tumling bullet does have a tendancy to make a rather nasty wound.

All the foregoing being said, the M-16 is not really intended to be lethal. If lethality was the intent, the Army would be using WWII era .308's Its a logistical issue, the M-16's prime task is to overwhelm the enemies war machine with wounded casualties. A wounded soldier does three things, it can make them outright non-combatants, or diminish their fighting capablility, and they will drain resources that could otherwise be expended on the war effort. No army can afford not taking care of their wounded, not so much from a humanitarian perspective but one from a morale perspective. Soldiers that realize their forces aren't going to take care of them if they get hurt, may choose not to fight. Again, if the intent was to kill, the U.S. military would be still using the .308.

At least that's what was taught to us troops in Reagan's military. I'm sure that the war that was being planned for then is different than what's going on now.

[Uncle Jaque]

That Sdmidt-Reuben K-31 is reputedly a very well made and accurate rifle for the price.

FFL Holders can still get them for around $100, BTW

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Swiss_1931_Carbin_Scmidt_Rubin_K31_7_5Swiss_Cal_.html

The 7.5mm Swiss is sort of an odball Round, but ammo can be had here and there, and some people reload for it.
It's probably about comparable to the .303 British in performance.

[brazzaville]

Good morning.
""Even after lying in a swamp you can pick up this rifle, aim it and shoot."

That's presupposing some 19 year old American trooper doesn't put a .223 round between your eyes when you pick the AK up or a Predator doesn't blow you into pieces with a Hellfire.

Michael Frazier

[brazzaville]

Good morning.
"Hackworth pulled the weapon off the body and fired off a round."

I would hope the late Hack cleared the barrel before he fired of a round from a weapon that had been buried directly in good old Vietnamese soil.

Michael Frazier

[brazzaville]

Good morning.
"Right! Why drive a Yugo when you can have a Cadillac."

"You can drive a Cadillac or you can drive a Porsche, but it's how good you drive that matters."

I heard a friend say that in regard to a guy she had just gone out with. She was in the habit of taking test drives.

Michael Frazier

[finnigan2]

I recently saw a documentary which compared the two rifles. The M-16 is lighter to carry around, the bullets weigh less so a soldier can carry more, and it is more accurate. On the other hand, it is more prone to jamming since it can't stand up as well to field conditions.
Probably the biggest advantage of the Russian made rifle is it's stopping power. In Vietnam a soldier hiding behind jungle trees would generally be safe from an M-16 round, while a bullet from a Kalashnikov would likely go right through the tree and hit the soldier.

[denydenydeny]

I don't have the book (Steel My Soldiers' Hearts) handy, but I only recall him saying that he picked it up, pulled back the handle to ready it for firing, and then fired it.

[archy]

The M-16 is lighter to carry around, the bullets weigh less so a soldier can carry more, and it is more accurate.

The Vietnam War-era M16A1 rifle weighed in at around 6.5 pounds, a little over 7.5 loaded, depending on accessories carried [sling, cleaning kit in butt, etc] The original milled-receiver AK-47 weighed 4.3 kg [9.5 lb] with an empty magazine in place, the later AKM stamped-receiver version introduced around 1960 3.14 kg empty, about 7 pounds even. Weight of the loaded 30-round magazine is .6 kg, about a pound and a half.

The AK47 and AKM however, have 16-inch barrels, making them really more an equivalent of the Vietnam War period XM177 *Car15* or the current M4 carbine [weight, 2.52 kg/ 5.56 pounds empty, 3.0 kg/ 6.6 lb with loaded 30 round magazine] The M16A1 had a 20-inch barrel [and better sights] part of the reason for its better accuracy and longer range. Those desiring accuracy from the Kalishnikov platform use the RPK version with its 24-inch long barrel and bipod, accurate on human targets well beyond 500 meters if things aren't too windy...under which condition the 55-grain M193 ammunition of the M16A1 is no great performer either.

The current M16A2 also has a 20-inch long barrel, but of heavier thickness, increasing its weight to about 9 pounds/ 4kg. Accordingly, the now-heavier M16A2 rifle and the now lighter former Soviet AKM weigh about the same, though variations in magazine capacity, accessories, magazine construction [aluminum, steel and plastic magazines are around for both weapons] can tip the scales half a pound or so either way for either rifle.

Online AK captured enemy equipment manual *here*

Interesting Vietnam-era M16 *comic book manual* *here*

[Mr.Atos]

I personally like this particular conversion,