Wow... don't miss this one! Click on "Media Link" in the first post
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Posted on 06/11/2006 5:58:30 PM PDT by driftdiver
Edited on 06/11/2006 6:41:46 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]
A discussion about protests by an anti-homosexual church at the funerals of fallen American soldiers turned into an astounding shoutfest on national television this weekend, with Fox News host Julie Banderas calling a fire-and-brimstone Christian preacher "the devil" and apparently condemning her to hell.
"You are the devil!" Banderas exclaimed to Shirley Phelps-Roper. "If you believe in the Bible, miss, you're going to hell!" Phelps-Roper: "You're proud. You're proud of your sins. You can't do enough sinning. You think 'gay' pride, bimbo. You have sinned away your day of grace."
Banderas: "OK, you are an abomination."
Phelps-Roper: "America is doomed. America is doomed. ... Before your eyes, missy, you're gonna see the destruction of America."
When we get to the same point as the Dutch then I will worry.
God is not seeking "good people." He seeks people that will follow and heed Him. People are by nature sinful and that applies to all.
In conversations with people I often divide things. Many say 'how can you judge him, the Bible says not to judge.' Well, yes, the Bible says not to judge anyone, lest ye be judged. But this applies to as "in God's eyes" as you touch on.
We shouldn't judge the things that God judges, namely the heart. But we absolutely should have laws and be able to judge people therein and in general otherwise. I'm certainly going to judge someone for societal purposes and in the interests of my family that just got released from prison for child molestation. I don't want them anywhere near my wife or kids, and that's judging someone. So there are two standards, "as society/people go," which you suggest, and "as God is concerned."
God destroyed the world in Noah's day b/c he "regretted having made man" b/c man had become so evil and sinful. Chapter 6 of Genesis outlines this. 6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. I wasn't around in Noah's day, :D, but I have a difficult time believing that vast parts of our world today, even our nation, are not as evil/sinful, as God measures "evil and sin," not us, as they were in Noah's day.
Since our standard for "good" seems to slide year-by-year, perhaps even monthly or weekly now, I believe that much of what we consider as "good" today would have been "not so good" in a former day, even perhaps only ten or twenty years ago. Euthanasia is getting closer to becoming a routine practice. The homosexual agenda has made enormous inroads into our and the world's societies. Bestiality is actually beginning to be discussed in a real way. We're moving at full speed on the slippery slope of morality, or perhaps lack thereof.
Some of the behavior and wilings of people these days goes on seemingly not affecting us in observation, yet 50 years ago it would have been viewed as lewd, utterly inappropriate, perhaps even gravely sinful.
But hey, this is what those pushing that behavior want/wanted. Does it make God happy? Not likely. Yet, it is fully acceptible in modern society.
I got into a brief debate about 20 years ago after watching Madonna come out on stage on some awards show in the primetime (8-9pm) hour in lingerie; garters, stockings, other scant items, and perform a thrusting demo for the world to see.
My point in the debate was that his was merely as stepping stone pushing the envelope a bit further in society. The person that I was debating laughed and facetiously stated that "yeah, this will cause the crumbling of morality in society." To which my response was that it would not single-handedly cause it, but that it was yet just another stepping stone creating the path into the center of the garden of evil and sin. They thought that my sentiment was absurd and ridiculous.
Based on what I've read in the Bible, God considers this to be evil and direly sinful behavior as he would someone watching it with any degree of lust. We can dismiss that in our (society's) "reinvention" of God and who He is, as if he's a pile of clay that we can shape into whatever we want to.
Yet, today, just look at how far we've advanced on that and hastened the building of that path. Nudity, depravity, licentousness, homosexual behavior, innuendo, and even outright projections of homosexual behavior, divorce, abortion, corruption and dishonesty culture-wide, etc., litter our moral landscape.
Is God happy and pleased by this? I dare say not. Then again, if one does not believe in the God of the Bible, then perhaps whomever people believe that God is is happy, but they are not then measuring according to reality, eh. They're measuring according to fantasy, a fantasy that they've conjured up in their minds as to who God really is. But He who made us from "a lump of clay" is not a lump of clay Himself to be shaped by that which He made!
As such, there are two standards. There is a moveable and non-concrete standard that is created by either a willing and active or passively complicit majority of people. This is also, indirectly, why James Madison maintained that our nation and its Constitution could only be viable for as long as its majority was "moral." He had in mind the more immovable concrete morality, not the one that society dictates, much as in Noah's time, clearly.
This is also why as one leaves the U.S., as sinful as it may be before God, the even more sinful before God it gets given that most other major nations around the globe have gone out of their way to see to it that God, the Living God of Jews and Christians, is removed in every way from their societies. They (Stalin, Hitler, Mao, etc., not to mention Madison, Jefferson, etc.) all realized that God brings freedom as outlined in our DoI and supported elsewhere in the founding fathers' writings. It is also why the first order of business is to remove any real allusions to God from society. Eastern Europe, even today following nearly half-a-century of Soviet rule, China, Russia, N. Korea, muslim nations, and all other totalitarian and/or fascist societies do not allow the open worship, aka "freedom of religion" that is the basis for the formation and sustenance of our nation. That's not by accident.
On somewhat of a sidenote, this is also why our allowing Islam to permeate our nation, if God will bring about "judgement" on us, it will likely be as it is in Europe now, by our abandoning of "really," not "superficially," following Him and heeding His doctrines. Ever wonder why the world is a itshhole, or tending that way, everywhere that God is removed yet seems to thrive where He is the foundation of such a society?
Anyhoo, so yes, by-and-large we are a "good" people. But we do not know the heart of God in some ways as you state. But we do know it fully in others if we've read the Scriptures for it is contained throughout them to give us a most clear and not uncertain picture of exactly that morality. Divorce for example is considered to be immoral for the most part and for reasons by which today that the vast majority of divorces in our country are executed. Yet we, mere mortals, LOL, would consider most of these people to be "good people," and by our standards they are. This is just one example among hundreds of not thousands by-the-way.
As well, no one can be vindicated of all sin societally. We are all sinners. Only God, via the blood of Christ in exchange for us paying a price of eternal separation from Him, can vindicate us of sin before Him.
Anyway, it's important to maintain the two distinctions in discussions of this nature.
I'll take her side on this one, and I don't need to know the actual arguments presented.
Actually she did pretty well, even in the King James.
Banderas: "The Bible says 'the fear of the Lord is hatred of evil,' [from the Book of] Proverbs. 'Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate.'
Actual verse:
Proverbs 8:13 KJV
The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
And for the record, BOTH can quote it better than you.
Ya, who left her cage unlocked anyway?
Those are evil pictures. Fools. I've had friends who were killed and/or maimed by IED's and this just makes me angry.
You caught me in an obvious grammatical error sir. I meant "Therefore the Hypocrite SHOULD not judge"...
Thank you for your correction. I should of not rushed my post.
Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner... There is a time/season for everything.
a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.
Ecclesiastes 3:1-8
When I turn the other cheek when someone else is being hurt, I'm not a pacifist, I'm a coward. Thanks for the reply.
Yep, the turn the other cheek is a reference to a insult. You don't see churches when sued paying double when fined. You don't expect a rape victim to invite an attacker back. Christians act like pacifists to often, Jesus was a man and those that read the Bible will understand this.
Jesus was offensive. Most people were offended by him. The proof for John the Baptist that Jesus was the Christ was that the blind see, the lame walk and the majority are "offended" by Him (Mat. 11:2-19). As Jesus said, "Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me" (Mat. 11:6; Luke 7:23). In Galilee, Jesus did not plead with his neighbors to understand Him when "they were offended at Him" (Mat. 13:57; Mark 6:3). If unbelievers are offended, so be it (cf. Luke 14:3-4; John 5:8-16). "Shake off the dust from your feet" (Mat. 10:14).
Christ’s apostles asked Him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard [Your] saying?" (Mat. 15:12). What is the accepted Christian response today after an offense is taken? Quick, apologize! Ask for forgiveness! Tell them you are sorry. How did Jesus respond? He said to ignore the complaints of the unbelievers: "Let them alone. They are blind," (Mat. 15:14). Today, many Christians condemn Christ’s attitude as unloving.
Jesus promised his followers, "you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended" (Mat. 24:9-10). Jesus taught that ‘if they hated Me, they will hate you’" (see John 15:18-19; 17:14; Mat. 10:22; Luke 21:17). Today Christians think if the world hates them, they have failed. The reverse should be true. It is not that a Christian wants to be hated; it is simply an occupational hazard.
The Bible sometimes ministers through ridicule, humor, sarcasm and even mocking. For example, God mocked the Midianites when He defeated them after sending a nightmare to them that they were being attacked by a loaf of bread (Jud. 7:13-14). Elijah, just prior to executing 450 prophets of Baal, "mocked them" as the Bible says, telling them to yell louder to their god so that Baal could hear their prayers since he was either on a trip, sleeping or in the restroom (Hebrew, "private place," 1 Ki. 18:27; and 2 Ki. 6:8-20).
God mocked Jeroboam, who "stretched out his hand from the altar" and ordered the prophet arrested. "Then his hand, which he stretched out toward him, withered, so that he could not pull it back to himself" (1 Ki. 13:4). God mocked the Philistines when they found Dagon their god "fallen on its face before the ark of the Lord. So they took Dagon and set it in its place again" (1 Sam. 5:3). The next morning they found Dagon toppled again, but this time he had lost his head (1 Sam. 5:4). God mocked the idolaters who cut down a branch, and with half of it they make a god to worship and with the other half, they make a fire to cook lunch (Is. 44:14-17)
My personal fave example is when Jesus warned of "the leaven of Herod" (Mark 8:15). When notified that "Herod wants to kill You," (Luke 13:31), Christ responded without respect, "Go, tell that fox, ‘I cast out demons’…" (Luke 13:32).
LOLROFLMBO... can you imagine what Herod thought of having his demons thrown out. Bet he had no trouble understanding who the man Jesus was, in the deepest of respect too.
Good conversing with you Ichabod1... salute buddy...
I woulda been curious to do a reverse lookup on the 800 number. If it was indeed the Phelps-bot, he would have to know that he would end up paying a lot of money to hear people giving him a piece of their mind that he of course didn't want to hear.
If you cut and paste at random between Old and New Testaments you will likely get a nonsensical hash.
That said, the Phelpsbots don't seem to take into account the precedent for exempting from judgment the people who are concerned and grieved over the sins of the country. I believe you'd find almost no American on FR who regards the gay revolution in America as anything less than regrettable, and the irritation clearly shows every time there is some new advance of the gay agenda. Have we seen anything even resembling grieving out of the Phelpsbots? They look much more like a devil's dance of delight at our supposedly impending demise.
True,,,,You see it in the political rhetoric as well.
War causes some very strange effects....IMO.
All political parties, and all segments, countries and communities. It is a emotion charged time that we live in. It reminds me of the old days when Khrushchev was pounding his shoe on the podium. And at the same time, comedians were making jokes about it. End of worlders were all about carrying their signs and placards and alcoholism was rampant in most every family.
All the while we were one button away from total annihilation and everyone looked up frequently to scan the sky for contrails.
But compared to today.........Today is a tea party. These folks have no clue what bad is, and they are chasing a mole in a mountain. Things are so much better today. Way....way better.
...that I COMPLETELY missed that!!!
My apologies to her and the folks on this thread!
No need: I just messed up!
It appears so, and I was using search software!
Wow... don't miss this one! Click on "Media Link" in the first post
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I love it.
A Phelpsie calling someone else out for "pride."
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