Marine addresses disrespect to Nat'l Anthem at Baseball game

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:31 pm Post subject: Caleb Brock and the Nat'l Anthem Reply with quote This past Sunday I went to the game with my family and my son's team. As a Marine, the National Anthem means something more than the game is about to start. As a former Drill Instructor, it's almost habitual for me to look for those not rendering the proper honor. Caleb Brock caught my eye. Scratching his head, blowing bubbles and moving around. At the conclusion of the song, I managed to give him some corrective actions as he entered the dugout.

Even though all the players are young men, just barely out of the college age, they should still realize they are role models for the young ball players and should act accordingly.

Perhaps, the player's indifference is due to an even worse reason. Maybe he just doesn't realize the significance of the song. Maybe he doesn't realize that he has the freedom to play "America's favorite pastime", because of the Patriots and battles fought that the song immortalizes.

To stand at attention with your hat off, right hand over your heart, and look at the American flag, for perhaps 2 minutes, is a pretty small price to pay to live in a country that offers the chance to play baseball for millions of dollars.

Gerard McGurty MSgt/USMC Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail USHER MARK

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: ANTHEM Reply with quote I AGREE WITH YOU ON THAT,AT LEAST IF THEY DONT PUT HAND OVER HEART, THEN THEY SHOULD STAND QUIETLY. I MUST ADMIT THAT AS AN USHER AT THE PARK,I DO MY PART BY STANDING WITH MY HAND OVER MY HEART,BUT THERE ARE TIMES WHEN I HEAR OE SEE THINGS OUT THE CONER OF MY EYE,THAT I DRAW MY ATTENTION TO THAT,AS THE FANS' SAFETY IS PPART OF MY JOB. I AM A VERY PATRIOTIC PERSON. I GET VERY EMOTIONAL AT MILITARY FUNERALS(DAD & BROTHER) I DO HOPE ALL US US WILL PAY MORE ATTENTION WHEN THE SONG IS PLAYED OR SUNG!! ONE GRIPE FROM ME PERSONALLY--I WISH PEEPS WOULD SING AS WRITTEN AND NOT JAZZ IT UP OR WORSE! Idea Back to top View user's profile Send private message Kinston_Eagle

PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:05 pm Post subject: Reply with quote People have the freedom to do whatever they want during the anthem, whether it's blowing bubbles, holding their hands over their hearts, or habitually looking "for those not rendering the proper honor" instead of concentrating on the flag and the words of the song like they should be doing. Is what he was doing worse than what you were doing?

Standing, being quiet, holding your hand/hat over your heart, facing the flag, etc... These are optional signs of respect that most people follow. They are not required.

Instead of yelling at him, you should have been proud. Thanks to brave men and women like you and your Marines, we live in a country where people still have the freedom to exercise their right NOT to pay respect to the flag if they don't want to. When the time comes when people are required to salute the flag against their will, the words of the anthem will become hollow meaningless words.

The "young ball players" you were in charge of have a great role model in yourself and their parents. If one of your ball players should notice inappropriate behavior during the anthem in the future, your best response should be "Really? I didn't notice. I was too busy honoring the flag and listening to the anthem." or "That's his right. A right many people paid the ultimate price to give him. I choose to honor those people by paying respect to the flag and anthem." In my opinion, these responses would make much more of an impact than yelling at the ballplayer. _________________ Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website NCMarine

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:50 am Post subject: Is what he was doing worse than what you were doing? Reply with quote Let me take a guess...what he was. Also, Mr Brock was pretty much directly in line with my sight of the flag. Pretty much unavoidable not to see.

You are absolutely right. He does have those freedoms. The Klan also has the right to march and protesters have the right to show up at veterans's funerals. I wonder is young Mr. Brock knows he is categorizing himself in those groups of people that exercise their freedoms no matter how disrespectfully they can be interpreted.

I see you are from Jacksonville. A pretty liberal point of view for a military town. Never served?

Gerard McGurty Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail All 4 KTribe

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:00 am Post subject: Caleb and the Anthem Reply with quote I certainly respect your opinion and I do agree with you. These players are role models for our young ball players and they should stay on their toes in everything that they do. However, I think what Caleb did is light in comparison with some of the actions of your fellow Marines. I sit in section 7 every time I attend a ballgame and I must tell you that some of the Marines in section 8 do not stand at attention all the time for the anthem either. Most of the time they are pretty well wasted and making fools of themselves. Of all of the people that should know the meaning of the anthem and how to behave during its playing it should be one of the Armed Forces. Many times, my kids can't focus on paying their respects due to the obnoxious behavior of some of the Marines in attendance.

However, I do not make a big deal out of it because I have always said that they have worked hard for this country and they deserve the right to have fun. They are still kids and these things are going to happen. Sir, do you really think that a negative post about one of the KTribe players was necessary? If so, then I wish that you would have been at several of the games I have been to. Sundays are not as popular for these Marines to be in attendance. Most likely you will see them on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday or Saturday. It is pretty hard to miss them.

Caleb, on your behalf I would like to say that you are a great player and I am sure that you will not let these such comments affect who you are. As I am sure you already know, most people only see the negative things that happen and choose not to focus on the positive.

When I see the Marines in attendance having fun and being obnoxious, I think of all the things they have done to protect our freedom. Not how drunk they are or how out of line they are during the anthem. I have been to many games and I have never witnessed a player acting unacceptable during the national anthem. I am very heart broken that as a respected Marine you did not get to see how much more respectful the team is than some of the Marines that attend the ballgames.

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: Reply with quote Using intimidation to force people to obey patriotic rituals is a tactic that was used by dictators like Hitler and Stalin. Opposing that is considered liberal now? It's a mixed up world we're living in. _________________ Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Jimmie

PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject: Reply with quote I go away for a while to watch some hockey (by the way I have game 5 tickets, Wed. night to the Hurricanes game) and this breaks out?? lol...I have to agree with Eagle and All4ktribe. I stand everytime for the national anthem but I do see when the marines themself do NOT show respect! They are most of the time drunk & obnoxious. They cuss so much and try to pick fights also. So your saying you should salute the flag but at the same time I can't even care my 2 year old daughter around these guys on thirsty thursday? So whats the difference on the respect area? Anyways I love the military and love what they do for our country and I know I'll stand for the anthem everytime! Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website NCMarine

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 12:12 am Post subject: My Fellow Marines Reply with quote The described behavior of my fellow Marines is unacceptable. You know they were Marines? Seymour Johnson AFB is pretty close by. Next time you see such behavior, correct them.

Intimidation to instill Patriotism? That's a good one. I am am sure Caleb Brock is feeling really shook up because of his lack of Patriotism. My disapproval for Mr. Brock's actions hardly equal the actions of Dictators. Maybe you should write the owners of every ball club and tell them about their "intimidation" tactics. How dare they to force their players to stand for that music they play!!!!

I have enjoyed reading some of your viewpoints. Without the diversity of opinions, America wouldn't be the great country it is today. I guess I am just one of those "crazy zealots" that expect Americans to do Patriotic things. Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Oldtimer

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 1:26 am Post subject: Reply with quote I think u need to open the door to a thing called life marine. U are acting like a lil kid Back to top View user's profile Send private message All 4 KTribe

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:55 am Post subject: Marine Behavior Reply with quote NCMarine,

There have been Marines as well as members of Seymour Johnson in attendance that have disrespected the anthem as well as acting in an unacceptable way. Wearing apparel that states their branch and location is an easy way to provide people with information as to where you are serving. If I were them, I would choose not to wear such clothing knowing that I was going to get wasted and act inappropriately.

Both groups have been well beyond rowdy while in attendance. Despite their location and branch of the US Military, all of the groups I am referring to should try to tone it down and be respectful of the anthem and the children in attendance. With that said, I will say that there are several guys that attend from Camp Lejune and Seymour that are awesome and even if they drink and get a little loud, they are very respectful. One of these groups refers to themselves as "Crowe's Row". They are full of spirit for the KTribe and they have gone out of their way on several occasions to be very respectful around my children and others.

Despite the behaviors, I respect all of them completely and I feel that they are just wanting to have a little fun. Harping on what they are doing wrong is not going to solve the problem.....most of the time it will just make it worse and may even lead to them being thrown out of the ballpark. I would rather just let them enjoy themselves and I will use their inappropriate behavior as a means of explaining to my children the wrong way to present themselves. Back to top View user's profile Send private message NCMarine

PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 8:50 am Post subject: Marines at game. Reply with quote KTribe: One thing I like about the Kinston games is the relaxed, family atmosphere that the stadium provides. I also like how approachable the players are. My 9 and 11 yr old sons have a great time. Everyone who paid for a ticket should be able to enjoy those things as well. If the Marines' behavior is robbing you of that experience (or your kid), speak up. I am sure the Marines have earned their leisure time, but as the saying goes, "there is a time and a place for everything."

Caleb Brock has chosen a profession that puts him in the spotlight. He was on the field, in uniform, during the Nat'l Anthem and his actions caught my eye. I decided to voice my opinion on the matter. I also attached my name to the comment. Whether Mr. Brock's actions were out of ignorance or done as as exercise of his American rights, it really doesn't matter. It's not going to affect his career, it's not going to end the world, and won't stop me from attending the games.

Like I said, I've enjoyed the comments...even yours Oldtimer! Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Hemeyer Moderator

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: Caleb Brock Reply with quote Caleb Brock is one of the most team oriented, lead by example players we have in the K-Tribe clubhouse. On the diamond he is the hardest worker around, sacrificing his time, talent and sweat to do whatever it takes to make this team and the Cleveland Indians organization better. Caleb is a great baseball player, but an even better person. Off the field Caleb is a family man with a lovely wife and a commitment to this community. Caleb also has a love for this country and the people that serve to keep it free. I am with the team for every game of their season and can tell you that their respect for the anthem and the flag that flies in every stadium is something we would all be proud of. This is a great baseball team on the field, but what Eastern North Carolina should be most proud of is the way they act off of it. It is a team full of respectful, giving individuals and I would personally put my reputation on the line for every one of these players; we truly have a team to be proud of here in Eastern North Carolina. It is also a team that loves when the buses of military men and women from around the area come to Grainger Stadium. The excitement they bring to the ballpark is unmatched. It is the least we can do when we offer military discounts and free tickets to the local bases in the area. Thank you for all that you do and we’ll see you at the ballpark. _________________ Chris Hemeyer Director of Broadcasting Kinston Indians Back to top View user's profile Send private message wo4t

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:47 am Post subject: Inappropriate Behavior of a Marine Reply with quote No one is any more patriotic than me. Although I did not serve in our armed forces, I have for many years produced programs and pageants that have honored our service men and women, God and country. I have often seen men, women, boys and girls (civilians) not standing at attention during public activities where the National Anthem was being sung. I have seen grown men and women talking, laughing, drinking beverages, along with a whole host of other activities, rather than paying attention to the singing or playing of the National Anthem. While I would prefer that everyone be respectful to this display, I realize that not everyone may have or even share the same values that I have been brought up with. Mr. McGurty, while I respect your viewpoints, I think your behavior was not exemplary of a Marine. First, even though you say you are a former drill instructor, this does not give you any right to display your emotions in the unprofessional way you did. May I suggest to you that you were totally out of control and certainly out of line. I know several other active and former drill instructors and they do not display their emotions in the manner you did. Certainly, you have absolutely no authority or right to do what you did. Insinuating that Caleb fits into categories such as the Klan shows your lack of intelligence and immaturity. I have known Caleb Brock personally for many years and can attest to the fact that he is very patriotic. Now, Mr. McGurty, since you are on this band wagon, have you ever noticed all the other professional players in baseball and football, car racing and other sports who do not pay the close attention that you think they should? Yes, some blow bubbles, drink beverages, spit tobacco juice, look around, talk, pray and even scratch in unmentionable areas of their body. Frankly, Mr. McGurty, you yourself have violated a fundamental right – the freedom to express yourself within the confines of the law as you wish. Who made you in charge, especially over civilians.

And so, to single Caleb Brock out of the, no doubt, dozens who did not stand at erect military attention as you would like, was foolish on your part. I suspect that young Mr. Brock was a little nervous like most other players.

Mr. McGurty, until our public schools start teaching respect as you and I were taught in our early years, we are not going to see our children give the attention to the National Anthem that you and I would hope for.

Mr. McGurty, until you decide to act in a responsible fashion, it is people like you who give others, less patriotic than you and I, a bad taste for the military. I wonder what your superiors, assuming you are an active Marine, would say about the display of your actions?

I hope Mr. Brock has the insight and fortitude to dismiss the bad display of Mr. McGurty, a professional Marine, as someone who stepped far over the bounds of their rights. I can assure him that not every military personnel is like Mr. McGurty!

Gary Carrier Hendersonville, Tn Back to top View user's profile Send private message NCMarine

"...produced programs and pageants..." Although probably not the same as having rounds crack over your head while returning fire, all in defense of folks like you and Mr Brock, I'll give you that one.

..."shows your lack of intelligence and immaturity." Well, I figured it would only be a matter of time before their was some name calling...but it's your right.

"...does not give you any right to display your emotions." Ok,, Caleb has rights but I don't have rights. Now all the pieces of the puzzle are starting to come together....not.

"...you were totally out of control..." Obviously, you have never witnessed totally out of control.

"...you yourself have violated a fundamental right – the freedom to express yourself within the confines of the law as you wish." Once again, I guess that only for Caleb. Apparently, I do not have the right to express my dissatisfaction for his actions.

"Who made you in charge, especially over civilians." No one. But ever notice how easy to say, "I'm not in charge" or "No one has assigned me that task." I will gladly "Take charge" of anyone or anywhere I view it necessary. If I am the first one at a car accident, I will take charge. I've put out fires in apartments because I took charge. I've caught a purse snatcher because I took charge. Imagine what the world would be like if others, "took charge"?

"young Mr. Brock was a little nervous like most other players. " What is he in T-Ball?

"Mr. McGurty, until our public schools start teaching respect as you and I were taught in our early years, we are not going to see our children give the attention to the National Anthem that you and I would hope for. " Well, now that makes more sense. It's not because we have the freedom to do anything we please, it's because the modern generation hasn't been taught respect.

Semper Fi Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Jimmie

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject: Reply with quote This is the craziest stuff...I have never met Brock but I'm sure he didn't mean anything by what he did and he loves this country more then anything just like everybody on this board. NCMarines you keep talking about Brock over and over again. I think we get the viewpoint that you don't like people blowing bubbles when they are standing for the anthem! We get your point so just get over it! There's a lot of other people that do worse things during the National Anthem then just blow bubbles. Saying that, I respect you and every other military person more then ever for fighting for our freedom! Like I said before I stand everytime and always will but I could really care less what other people do.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:32 pm Post subject: Trust me....I'm over it. Reply with quote Jimmie...I'm over it. The fact that I keep talking about Brock over and over...well that process is called responding.

I had no clue who Caleb Brock was prior to Sun. I am sure he is the great guy and the great ball player everyone here says he is.

You all seem to be very loyal, dedicated fans and are quick to defend your players. The Indians should be very proud of their fans. It would be neat to see everyone defend their Anthem just as vehemently. Then you could be proud of yourself. Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Kinston_Eagle

PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 9:36 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Hope you had a good Flag Day NCMarine. _________________ Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website wo4t

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: NC Marine Behavior Unbecoming of an Officer Reply with quote Mr. McGurty,

I don’t normally respond in like but feel it necessary to do so in this instance. I doubt seriously that the Indian organization nor the fans had these type posts in mind for this forum.

Just because you have served in the military doesn’t make you any more or less patriotic than someone who has not served in the military. For you to suggest this farce, shows your shallowness and level of intelligence. I know plenty of people who are extremely patriotic but who have never worn a uniform of our armed services --- many of them are legal immigrants. Do you really think a being in a foxhole makes you patriotic?

You seem to brag about the fact that you are a take charge type of guy. The mere fact that you have to brag about it tells me a lot about you. I suspect you are a control freak; your actions certainly point in that direction.

Mr. McGurty, your reference to the fact that I have not witnessed “totally out of control” suggests to me even further that you have control issues and problems. I strongly suspect that this is not the first time your public display of emotions has been displayed.

There was really no reason for you to “take charge” and lament Mr. Brock, for his actions were not anywhere near the magnitude of a car accident or house fire, you mentioned, where you may have saved lives. Nor was it anywhere along the lines of purse snatching. You sound like a vigilante.

Your insinuation that only you are capable of taking charge is not only absurd, but ridiculous as well. Are you the only man on the planet?

I think you should have been more in charge (control) of your own emotions, not losing your cool and making a public spectacle of yourself. I dare say that your berating actions were nauseating to those who saw your display. And, what about the children who witnessed your actions? How do you explain your actions to them? Do you not think they were probably terrified?

Whatever Mr. Brock may have done did not warrant your actions. You sir, have apparently missed the whole point: irregardless of Mr. Brock’s actions, your corrective measure was out of line. I don’t think you proved but one thing: you sir, were out of control! Whether you are in or out of uniform, you do not have the right to take any civilian to task over anything – you are not judge and jury. Just because you were a drill instructor does not mean squat to me. Your rights end where someone else’s begins.

While we have the right to express ourselves within the confines of the law, there is, Mr. McGurty, such a thing as common sense and responsibility. A grown man should behave responsibly and be able to control his emotions, especially in public.

I am sure Mr. Brock will think twice before blowing bubbles or scratching his head during the National Anthem. Even if he does, he will no doubt have plenty of company. I suppose this means that not only are you not supposed to blow bubbles, but I should thin according to you that even chewing gum would be out of line. More importantly, I hope Mr. Brock realizes that he needs to quickly dismiss people like you, who display emotions such as you did, knowing that they are probably off their rocker!

I am glad you enjoy reading the viewpoints of others, because that is exactly what I have expressed, my own viewpoint. And, I strongly suspect your ego is fed by all the commotion you have created.

As a tribute to you and this experience, I may, the next time I attend a function where the National Anthem is sung, when they sing the phrase “and the rocket’s red glare, the bombs bursting in air,” blow an exploding bubble just for the sound effects. Surely, you wouldn’t disapprove of that, would you Mr. McGurty?

The Indians organization is comprised of many wonderful people. For you to cast the cloud you did upon this club and its fans in the manner in which you did was cowardly. It would have taken much more of a man to discuss the issue with Mr. Brock or the manager in a private conversation. This is how most grown, responsible men would have reacted.

If I had anything to do with the Indians organization I would ban you from attendance until a public apology is rendered.

I don’t think the real issue is Mr. Brock’s blowing bubbles or scratching his head during the National Anthem at all. I think the real issue is your bad display of emotions and poor judgment.

I have not yet been able to confirm your status: active or in-active. If active, I suggest that others who agree with me do as I plan to do: contact your superiors and file a formal complaint. Mr. McGurty, the officers from the 101st that I have spoken with about your actions agree, you were out of line. Military or civilian, you cannot throw your weight around and muscle people to do things as you wish. This is America, Mr. McGurty. While you do have the fundamental right to say things, you should first engage your brain before your mouth.

Your reference to my making sense in only one area of your response to my initial post makes me wonder if you are competent enough to understand the fact that the real issue is you and your actions, Mr. McGurty, not Mr. Brock.

I do applaud you and all of our service men and women for service to our country. However, military does not rule or lord over civilians. That mentality won’t fly. I certainly hope your actions do not cast a negative cloud over the armed services. Although your actions were unbecoming of an officer and certainly not exemplary of a gentleman and officer, they do not reflect the attitude of most of our men and women serving our country.

Finally, Mr. McGurty, had you hailed your bad display of emotions upon me, such as you did with Mr. Brock, being a no-nonsense, take charge type of guy myself, I would have fed you your stripes! Are you really a Marine? Semper Fi?

Gary Carrier Hendersonville, TN Back to top View user's profile Send private message NCMarine

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:32 pm Post subject: Mr. Carrier...you crack me up. Reply with quote Apparently, you were at the game and from what I gather, you had to be right next to me. If you're such a "take charge" guy, why didn't you step up and render me "under control"?

I don't even need to resort to name calling or insults to get you frazzled. I can just cut and paste your own words and add a little explanation to them.

I imagine I can do the same thing with the book you just posted as it's as brittle as your earlier post, but Gary, I no longer enjoy your comments. I didn't think going on a "Fan Forum" and posting my displeasure of a player's actions would go over too well, but I didn't think a player's actions would garner more defense than our National Colors or Anthem. For our country's sake, I hope everyone doesn't mirror your thought process.

I will continue doing what I do and proudly defend America as I have for nearly the last 2 decades. File a complaint, feed me my stripes, ban me from the ballpark, or choreograph bubble popping to the the Anthem...do whatever floats your boat..

I think I will terminate my replies to this topic. If you see me at the stadium, don't be a stranger. I'll be easy to spot. I'l l be the one jack-stepping up and down the aisles, terrifying lil' children and casting clouds over the stadium. Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Jimmie

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:09 pm Post subject: Reply with quote This whole thing is making me a little.. Sick! Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Jimmie

PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:12 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Back to top View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website wo4t

PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:07 am Post subject: After the Fact is Too Late . . . Reply with quote Mr. McGurty,

You have every right to express yourself in whatever manner is within the confines of the law. In the future, I would hope you would act in a more responsible manner. There is a place and time for everything. For you to express your displeasure in the way in which you did at the time you chose, is in my opinion, not responsible or in control.

Incidentally, one only has to read the other posts to realize you acted in an unprofessional and irresponsible manner. Most, seemed to at least think you were out of line.

Feeding you your stripes was not intended in the way in which you perhaps understood it --- for that would have only made me act in an immature and unprofessional manner. Role models are important for Marines as well as those who play professional sports.

Again, your actions and your post was what started this whole thing. Mr. McGurty, some things are left better unsaid. I am betting you realize that now - - after the fact.

This sir, is my last post and I do applaud and thank you for your committment , service and dedication to our great country!

Gary Carrier Hendersonville Back to top View user's profile Send private message Display posts from previous: Post new topic Reply to topic kinstonindians.com Forum Index -> Players All times are GMT - 5 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2 Page 2 of 2

Okay Freepers, this is a long read, but worth it. The Marine is question, NCMarine is a very good friend of my husbands. He has a long, illustrious career as a Marine and has been there and done that. He has never been afraid of much and will go where he is told. He is as patriotic as they come and if he felt the need to call this guy, it needed to be done. I only wish I was there to see him in action, because knowing him and the fact that he used to be a drill instructor, I'm sure the language was colorful and loud, to say the least.

I think a lot of the posts in response to his action go long way to showing how far the people in country have fallen in disrespect to our flag and our country. On both the military and civilian sides of the issue.

Enjoy!

I found this a while ago, printed it and posted it at the Sea Control Weapons School in Jacksonville FL (where I work). There was some confusion that is being cleared up.

I was taught to stand at attention with hand over heart.

Rendering honors: one difference between Sailors, Marines

U.S. Navy photos

Until recently, there has been a difference in the way Sailors and Marines render honors to colors while in civilian attire.

Beginning at boot camp, drill instructors teach Marine recruits to stand at attention during the national anthem and morning and evening colors when in civilian attire.

It has been brought to the Marine Corps' attention that simply standing in the position of attention is not the correct method of rendering honors according to U.S. Navy Regulations.

"For years, our method of rendering honors to colors while in civilian attire has not been in accordance with U.S. Code, Title 36, the U.S. Navy Regulations or our Marine Corps Flag Manual," said Sgt. Maj. Ralph Drake, Training and Education Command sergeant major.

"These all called for placing the right hand over the heart, vice just standing at attention.

"Our new Drill and Ceremonies Order P5060.1 is now in compliance. Marine Corps Recruit Depot Parris Island has already modified their lesson plans on this.

Drill Instructor school will also make the appropriate changes."

The question of whether or not simply standing at the position of attention while in civilian attire was brought up several months ago.

"It was originally brought up by a sergeant major at one of the recruit depot's about six months ago," said Sgt. Maj. Brian Lindstrom, station sergeant major.

"It was then shot out (by e-mail) to a bunch of senior sergeants major for discussion. I don't think there was any argument, because it was already there in writing and it's what we are supposed to be doing. I think a lot of people were in shock 'yeah it is in writing, why aren't we doing it?' That was the question at the recruit depot.

"Why hasn't it always been that way? It could have been an oversight, I'm not sure," said Lindstrom. "Our current policy is if you are in civilian clothes, Marines will be at the position of attention.

"The position of attention is also a sign of respect. But I think being at the position of attention and placing your hand over your heart would be the correct way to do it."

Despite the fact that Marines have learned to stand at attention during colors, they are now expected to follow the guidelines of the U.S. Navy Regulations and Marine Corps Flag Manual.

"The station's corporal's course now teaches the proper way to render honors to colors and the national anthem while in civilian attire," said Lindstrom.

"I have been in for twenty-nine years, and I was taught that if colors play and I'm in civilian attire, to simply stand at the position of attention," said Lindstrom.

"But now if in civilian attire during the national anthem or colors, my right hand will go over my heart."

Where did this "hand over the heart" business originate? I grew up in the '50s and '60s at a time when the schools activtely taught respect toward the institutions of the country, but the most we were ever instructed to do was to stand quietly and face the flag during the playing of the anthem. The hand-on-the-heart was reserved for the Pledge of Allegiance--symbolizing the nature of a pledge. You're not pledging or vowing anything when the anthem is sung.

I think the problem is that we've gotten so far away from the ideals of patriotism over the course of the past 40 years that people have confused the distinction between the pledge and the anthem.

While we're on the subject, another thing that truly gets my goat is the tendency for people to sing the anthem as if it were some kind of dirge for a fallen rock star. It should be sung in a strong voice with the words clearly enunciated--it's "dawn's early," not "donzerly."

You know that sometimes folks need a swift kick in the a$$ to get their attention. Ball players are just like everyone else, and have a tendency, at times, to forget things-just like me. I'm happy this Marine took him to task for his boorish behavior, and truly hope the player remembers to act as a professional ballplayer should the next time. I'm amazed at the insults and threats this Marine received from some folks, but something tells me that he can, and will, be able to handle it. The clown that threatened to write his superiors sounds like a real pantywaist to me, and I'm certain the Marine is just "quaking in his boots" with that threat !! :0 )

I attend the Cleveland Browns home Football games regularly and sit in the Dawg Pound. You can sit in the same section I do at Cleveland Stadium and disrespect the flag and the National Anthem all ya want, of course you probably will not enjoy the rest of the game and not want to come back.

Even though most of the guys and gals who sit around me are Union workers and mostly registered Democrats, they have little use for people who disrespect the flag. They tend to get creative in showing people the error of their ways when doing so.

Also it should be noted that though Jim Brown is nearly a God in Cleveland he is ridiculed highly for not taking of that little beanie cap he wears now during the Anthem. He does face the flag and sing usually when at the Games but he never removes that cap.

"...you were totally out of control..." Obviously, you have never witnessed totally out of control.

Funny, but notice how the non-veteran took that comment to mean your friend was personally not in touch with his reason, as opposed to being in a situation that was totally out of control, ie., war, in which one must call upon deep reserves of strength, hope, national pride, brotherly love, etc... to survive and accomplish a task that simply MUST be accomplished.

Sorry, but the only (male) non-veterans I want anything to do with are the ones who are contrite, and know they are freeriding the sacrifices of others, and are decent enough to honor fallen heroes. It is their right, of course, not to. But when more people are concerned with their "right not to serve" and to "express themselves any way they choose," than are concerned with honoring the values that established this nation the deepest, most meaningful way--WITH THEIR OWN SERVICE--that is when we will be lost. Our servicemen and women are willing to spill their blood to replenish freedom. These folks who want to blow bubbles during a two-minute tribute, no matter their right to do so, are selfish bastards. Period.

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