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Globe Columnist: Shamed by Hiroshima, America Was Awaiting 9/11 Payback
Boston Globe/NewsBusters ^ | Mark Finkelstein

Posted on 08/07/2006 6:22:41 AM PDT by governsleastgovernsbest

by Mark Finkelstein

August 7, 2006 - 09:10

Because of shame over their sins of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Americans were actually awaiting payback along the lines of 9/11. You say you were unaware of any such feelings? That's only because your feeling was 'subliminal.' Your shame was 'unconscious.' Well, that, or the fact that you just don't have the same exquisitely refined sensibilities of Boston Globe columnist James Carroll.

Here's how Carroll spelled it out in his column, The Nagasaki Principle:

"Thus, what I am calling the Nagasaki principle consists in momentum, which obfuscates responsibility before the fact, and denial, which prevents a necessary moral reckoning afterward.

"This may seem like airy theorizing, but the psychologically unfinished business of the Nuclear Age, dating to the day after Hiroshima, defined the American response to the trauma of Sept. 11, 2001. The nation had lived for two generations with the subliminal but powerfully felt dread of a coming nuclear war.

"Unconsciously ashamed of our own action in using the bomb, we were waiting for pay-back, and on that beautiful morning it seemed to come. The smoke rising up from the twin towers hit us like a mushroom cloud, and we instantly dubbed the ruined site as Ground Zero, when, as historian John Dower observes, the only true Ground Zeros are the two in Japan."

Reading Carroll's bio, one senses it is the author, rather than Americans in general, who have 'subiminal,' 'unconscious' issues to resolve:

"James P. Carroll is best known for his work, An American Requiem: God, My Father, and the War That Came Between Us (1996), about the conflict between his father and himself over America's role in the Vietnam War. His father was General Joseph Carroll, the director of the Pentagon's Defense Intelligence Agency during most of the war in Southeast Asia.

"James Carroll, spent a year in the ROTC program at Georgetown University and was honored as ROTC Cadet of the year in 1961. The following year Carroll decided to become a priest, entering the novitiate of the Paulist Fathers. In early 1969, he was ordained in New York by Terrence Cardinal Cooke, the U.S. military vicar. At the speech he gave at his first mass, the next day, he quoted a biblical passage from the prophet Ezekiel, referring to death and bones "burned by time and by desert wind, by the sun," and he added, "and by napalm." The addition of those words would cause an unresolved rift between him and his father."

Could Carroll's column be a classic bit of projection of his own Oedipal issues?


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Japan
KEYWORDS: 911; hiroshima; hostonglobe; jamespcarroll; nagasaki
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1 posted on 08/07/2006 6:22:44 AM PDT by governsleastgovernsbest
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To: Behind Liberal Lines; Miss Marple; an amused spectator; netmilsmom; Diogenesis; YaYa123; MEG33; ...

Boston Globe/NewsBusters Oedipal-projection ping to Today show list.


2 posted on 08/07/2006 6:23:29 AM PDT by governsleastgovernsbest (Watching the Today Show since 2002 so you don't have to.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
What-what-what?
3 posted on 08/07/2006 6:24:16 AM PDT by RichInOC (Stupidity is its own punishment...but too much of the press thinks they're exempt.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
This may seem like airy theorizing...

No. It seems like rantings from someone who hates western civilization.

4 posted on 08/07/2006 6:25:09 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy ( “I'm the Emperor, and I want dumplings!” (German: Ich bin der Kaiser und will Knödel.))
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

You start a war: We finish a war.

Idiots.


5 posted on 08/07/2006 6:25:15 AM PDT by bannie (HILLARY: Not all perversions are sexual.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

WTF!?


6 posted on 08/07/2006 6:26:00 AM PDT by AmericanInTokyo (A few clever bones tossed on gay unions, flag burning & Iraq still don't absolve GWB over BORDERS)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
Because of shame over their sins of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

No sin, but rather dire necessity. Otherwise we'ld still be fighting Japan.

7 posted on 08/07/2006 6:26:35 AM PDT by agere_contra
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

I feel no shame.


8 posted on 08/07/2006 6:27:11 AM PDT by Americanexpat (A strong democracy through citizen oversight.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

God bless Truman for nuking Japan.


9 posted on 08/07/2006 6:27:11 AM PDT by Vaquero (time again for the Crusades.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
Unconsciously ashamed of our own action in using the bomb

What a tool. My grandfather's ship was kamikazied during the Battle of Okinawa. He had hundreds of his shipmates die. And this unmitigated idiot has the gall to believe that anyone with a brain feels any shame about dropping the bomb to end the war? The bomb saved millions of American AND Japanese lives by bringing the war to an end without the need to invade the home islands.

Of course, this jerk also probably thinks a cease-fire in Lebanon would lead to peace and few lives lost. Stupid is, if anything, consistent.

10 posted on 08/07/2006 6:27:48 AM PDT by dirtboy (Why does Israel take border security seriously but we do not, when Islamists wish us both harm?)
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To: RichInOC
What can you say?

It's August, and do I detect the rumblings of another 'let's debate Hiroshima and Nagasaki' thread continuing on to 400 posts, here on FR, one of our annual summer rites of passage.

11 posted on 08/07/2006 6:27:59 AM PDT by AmericanInTokyo (A few clever bones tossed on gay unions, flag burning & Iraq still don't absolve GWB over BORDERS)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
Reading Carroll's bio, one senses it is the author, rather than Americans in general, who have 'subiminal,' 'unconscious' issues to resolve

I'm going to go with that since I don't have any unresolved issues over Hiroshima seeing as it was the right thing to do.

12 posted on 08/07/2006 6:28:13 AM PDT by Bahbah (Yalla ya, Nasrallah, we'll send you off to Allah.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
Could Carroll's column be a classic bit of projection of his own Oedipal issues?

Every single one of Carroll's columns is just like this.

Without question, he is the biggest pussy in New England.

13 posted on 08/07/2006 6:28:57 AM PDT by Hemingway's Ghost (Spirit of '75)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

What a frickin' idiot!


14 posted on 08/07/2006 6:29:02 AM PDT by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ("Don't touch that thing")
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
"Thus, what I am calling the Nagasaki principle consists in momentum, which obfuscates responsibility before the fact, and denial, which prevents a necessary moral reckoning afterward.

Airy theorism? Is it even a sentence?

15 posted on 08/07/2006 6:29:24 AM PDT by Rummyfan
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To: Bahbah

The only thing 'unresolved' about September 11th is that it was more or less a by-product of eight years of Clinton, steeped in abject lack of national preparation and flavored with American moral decay widely detested around the Islamic world, combined with external subjective global impressions of our incontrovertible weakness (again due to Clinton) which set in wheels the actions of the 19 hijackers and those who issued the orders.


16 posted on 08/07/2006 6:31:23 AM PDT by AmericanInTokyo (A few clever bones tossed on gay unions, flag burning & Iraq still don't absolve GWB over BORDERS)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

Just for the record, this American is not ashamed, and remembers feeling quite proud as a kid that we had decisively put an end to the Japanese threat.

I also remember "Unconditional Surrender"

Don't care if he was a democrat, Truman knew what he was doing>


17 posted on 08/07/2006 6:31:25 AM PDT by From many - one.
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

Only guilt ridden liberals feel/felt this way.

And as all liberals do, they project their own distorted feelings and reasoning on to others.

It was a damn shame that we had to drop the bomb. But the responsibility lies with Japan. For me, sadness for the innocents does not translate into guilt.

I finally figured out why liberals have such an affinity for arab terrorists. You know how they march in the street whipping themselves bloody with chains? That's what libs do to themselves emotionally, and wish they had the nerve to do physically.


18 posted on 08/07/2006 6:31:32 AM PDT by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the 60s...you weren't really there.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

PEARL HARBOR was our invitation. Any logic beyond that is skewered.


19 posted on 08/07/2006 6:32:29 AM PDT by bannie (HILLARY: Not all perversions are sexual.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

""Thus, what I am calling the Nagasaki principle consists in momentum, which obfuscates responsibility before the fact, and denial, which prevents a necessary moral reckoning afterward."

I'd feel guiltier if I could figure out what this meant.


20 posted on 08/07/2006 6:33:08 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

""Thus, what I am calling the Nagasaki principle consists in momentum, which obfuscates responsibility before the fact, and denial, which prevents a necessary moral reckoning afterward."

I'd feel guiltier if I could figure out what this meant.


21 posted on 08/07/2006 6:33:10 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
"Unconsciously ashamed of our own action in using the bomb, we were waiting for pay-back, and on that beautiful morning it seemed to come. The smoke rising up from the twin towers hit us like a mushroom cloud, and we instantly dubbed the ruined site as Ground Zero, when, as historian John Dower observes, the only true Ground Zeros are the two in Japan."

He sees poetic beauty in the attacks of 9/11.

22 posted on 08/07/2006 6:33:16 AM PDT by pax_et_bonum (Whatever happened to Cynthia McKinney?)
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To: AmericanInTokyo

I can say that Mr. Carroll's column sounds like one of the most idiotic I've ever known to issue from an American news outlet. Given the competition, that's impressive.


23 posted on 08/07/2006 6:34:23 AM PDT by RichInOC (Stupidity is its own punishment...but too much of the press thinks they're exempt.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

Oh, for crying loud. Not this crap again.

The atom bombs dropped on Japan saved the lives of at least 500,000 American servicemen and several million (yes, several MILLION) Japanese, most of them civilians.


24 posted on 08/07/2006 6:35:17 AM PDT by Skooz (Chastity prays for me, piety sings...Modesty hides my thighs in her wings...)
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To: AmericanInTokyo

Yeah, that about covers it.... : )


25 posted on 08/07/2006 6:35:21 AM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (Taglines for sale or rent. Good "one liners", 50 cents.)
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To: ChildOfThe60s

These people are generally the ones you find in East Village bookstores, with their Che T-shirts on, reeking of B.O. (especially the unshaved female types), smoking pipes, in their Birkenstocks, and reading boring, socialist tomes one after the other. No real word releveance to anyone here reading this thread this morning.


26 posted on 08/07/2006 6:36:39 AM PDT by AmericanInTokyo (A few clever bones tossed on gay unions, flag burning & Iraq still don't absolve GWB over BORDERS)
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To: dirtboy

My dad was Army Air Corps, back from overseas at the time but waiting to be sent out again if it hadn't been for Hiroshima and the Japanese surrender.

I once asked him his opinion on Truman's decision to use the atomic bomb. He said, "If word got out that he had a weapon that could have ended the war and chose not to use it, someone would have killed him."


27 posted on 08/07/2006 6:36:51 AM PDT by joylyn
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
Good Lord...

The blanket of stupidity that the left is so enveloped in these days makes you feel as if you yourself are suffocating sometimes.
28 posted on 08/07/2006 6:38:11 AM PDT by reagan_fanatic (Get off my lawn!)
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To: Skooz

like I said, here comes the usual "It's August on FR" endless commentaries on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I'll wager it will continue at least for 300 posts.


29 posted on 08/07/2006 6:38:11 AM PDT by AmericanInTokyo (A few clever bones tossed on gay unions, flag burning & Iraq still don't absolve GWB over BORDERS)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
Unconsciously ashamed of our own action in using the bomb, we were waiting for pay-back

Unbelievable idiot. This sounds like a pansy who immediately wets himself anytime anyone mentions the word 'nuclear' or 'atomic'. A typical coward though, and likely using the 'fear' of nukes and the modern liberal psychosis against any war/combat of any type to confuse the casual reader into forgetting the crispy cities that came before the nukes.

Dresden and Tokyo were devastated by incendiary bombs, and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of civilians were killed in the fire bombings of many cities in WW2.

Someone needs his depends changed.
30 posted on 08/07/2006 6:38:39 AM PDT by Pox (If it's a Coward you are searching for, you need look no further than the Democrats.)
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To: joylyn

Exactly.

Having the bomb in 1945, and not using it, would have been an act of insanity.


31 posted on 08/07/2006 6:39:03 AM PDT by Skooz (Chastity prays for me, piety sings...Modesty hides my thighs in her wings...)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

What an epitomy of a USEFUL IDIOT.


32 posted on 08/07/2006 6:39:19 AM PDT by Jeff Head (www.dragonsfuryseries.com)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
"Thus, what I am calling the Nagasaki principle consists in momentum, which obfuscates responsibility before the fact, and denial, which prevents a necessary..."

Sorry Mark, I just couldn't read passed this point. The disconnect between reality and fantasy for the left is painful to digest sometimes.

33 posted on 08/07/2006 6:39:54 AM PDT by subterfuge (Call me a Jingoist, I don't care...)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

"Reading Carroll's bio, one senses it is the author, rather than Americans in general, who have 'subiminal,' 'unconscious' issues to resolve."

I'd say Finkelstein has put his finger on it...


34 posted on 08/07/2006 6:40:04 AM PDT by bwteim
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

It would have been immoral and unconcionable to allow the Japanese to continue their fanatical war any longer. They had slaughtered far too many people and had a fight to the death mindset not unlike the moslem world today. The war would have been prolonged and many more including my father would have potentially been killed. Guilt! You've got to be kidding me. The Japanese reaped only a small part of what should have come to them for their deeds. I have never had any feelings of guilt over what we did to end their suicidal war mentality.


35 posted on 08/07/2006 6:41:26 AM PDT by RJS1950 (The democrats are the "enemies foreign and domestic" cited in the federal oath)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

Obviously, we should have waited until Japan got the bomb (they were close). Then, after they nuked San Francisco and Los Angeles, we would have been justified in using our bomb on them. That would have been a proportional response.


36 posted on 08/07/2006 6:42:03 AM PDT by Fresh Wind (Democrats are guilty of whatever they scream the loudest about.)
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To: Pox
I think even modern day Japanese, some war survivors, many still unforgiving of H and N (the closer you get to these modern, totally rebuilt cities), would be eyes-glazing- over, shaking their heads in disbelief when they heard this crackpot psycho-cultural explanation, and would say "you don't know the Americans, do you? They were never waiting for any such payback. The three events are entirely unrelated."

I had heard some Japanese say "well, now they know the feeling", but that is about as far as it went and I never knew anyone per say who glorified over the 9-11, but only wished the US the best.

37 posted on 08/07/2006 6:42:57 AM PDT by AmericanInTokyo (A few clever bones tossed on gay unions, flag burning & Iraq still don't absolve GWB over BORDERS)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
As soon as I get over my feelings of guilt about our treatment of the Indians umm, Native Americans, which occurred a century or two before I was born, I will start dealing with my culpability towards the Japanese, who were A-Bombed three years before I was born. Then, there is my continuing guilt about Slavery. And don't forget how my ancestors persecuted the Moors. And, I'm pretty sure I can trace my lineage back to Cain and Abel, on Cain's side.
38 posted on 08/07/2006 6:43:58 AM PDT by TruthShallSetYouFree (Abortion is to family planning what bankruptcy is to financial planning.)
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To: bwteim
I'd say Finkelstein has put his finger on it...

That Finkelstein is a freakin' genius, I tell ya!

PS: Governs = Finkelstein!

39 posted on 08/07/2006 6:44:02 AM PDT by governsleastgovernsbest (Watching the Today Show since 2002 so you don't have to.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

My father was on Leyte in 1945 working as an NCO in a motor pool (he was a skilled mechanic). He'd already been told that with the expected casualty rates from an invasion of the Japanese home islands, he could expect to be yanked out of his mechanic job, handed an M1, and sent to Japan as an infantryman--where his chances of survival were marginal.

So all I have to say is, God bless the Manhattan Project.

}:-)4


40 posted on 08/07/2006 6:45:29 AM PDT by Moose4 (Dirka dirka Mohammed jihad.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

If 9-11 happened twenty years ago and this ass-hat wrote this he'd have been run out of town on a rail, even in Boston.


41 posted on 08/07/2006 6:46:09 AM PDT by subterfuge (Call me a Jingoist, I don't care...)
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To: subterfuge

Yes, he would have teeth in the single-digits.


42 posted on 08/07/2006 6:47:16 AM PDT by AmericanInTokyo (A few clever bones tossed on gay unions, flag burning & Iraq still don't absolve GWB over BORDERS)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

If we hadn't used the atomic weapons, millions more lives would have been lost to conventional warfare to take Japan. It would have been unethical for America to not use them. The secret would have eventually come out and everyone would have asked Truman why he chose to continue the war when he had the chance to end it. Demonstration bombings would have done nothing to stop the fanatical Japanese.


43 posted on 08/07/2006 6:51:48 AM PDT by Kirkwood
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To: governsleastgovernsbest
James Carroll:


44 posted on 08/07/2006 6:51:53 AM PDT by governsleastgovernsbest (Watching the Today Show since 2002 so you don't have to.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

Please, someone correct me if I am wrong. But when the atomic bombs were dropped and Japan surrendered, didn't America and Americans - the overwhelmingly majority of them - breathe a sigh of relief that finally, the war was over? At what point did this bs theory of America committing a war crime and should feel shame and guilt, first come about? I have my beliefs that this is some sort of Soviet propaganda bs that the American left has now acceptted as fact. Am I close with that assumption?


45 posted on 08/07/2006 6:52:00 AM PDT by 7thson (I've got a seat at the big conference table! I'm gonna paint my logo on it!)
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To: subterfuge; governsleastgovernsbest
If 9-11 happened twenty years ago and this ass-hat wrote this he'd have been run out of town on a rail, even in Boston.

AMEN, brother!

Boston Globe + James Carroll = Commie dingbats

46 posted on 08/07/2006 6:52:46 AM PDT by demkicker (democrats and terrorists are intimate bedfellows)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

He just explained why the Globe hired him: he is a left-wing-nut-job.


47 posted on 08/07/2006 6:53:21 AM PDT by Leftism is Mentally Deranged (Leftism is the ideology of nihilism, despair, nothingness and death.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

A while back I lived in Los Alamos, where the first bombs were built.

The local paper often reprinted stories from other papers, usually but not always from overseas, in which the reporter visits the town and describes the constant sense of overwhelming guilt the residents of the town suffered under. We were apparently all walking around with our shoulders slumped and unable to look a foreign reporter in the eye.

Quite amusing, actually.


48 posted on 08/07/2006 6:54:26 AM PDT by Restorer
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To: ClearCase_guy

Count on the Globe to provide space to leftist self-loathers.


49 posted on 08/07/2006 6:55:55 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks (BTUs are my Beat.)
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To: governsleastgovernsbest

The shame would have been having LeMay finished bombing every Japanese city, rail line, port and highway making the fall '45 rice harvest unaccessable to most of Japan. The nation quite literally would have starved in 1946.

Not to mention extrapolating casualties which would have occurred in a homelan invasion.


50 posted on 08/07/2006 6:58:11 AM PDT by zek157
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