Haditha probe leaves Marines wondering / Haditha probe prompts concerns among Marines

AP on Yahoo ^ | 8/14/06 | Antonio Castaneda - ap

[NormsRevenge]

HADITHA, Iraq - A young Marine wonders if his superiors will support him if he shoots at perceived threats. An officer worries that civilians look at his Marines with more suspicion. The proud colonel acknowledges that his Corps has lost stature in the public's eyes.

Allegations that Marines deliberately killed 24 civilians — including women and children — last November in this rebellious city have prompted reactions ranging from shame and anger to disbelief within the Marine Corps.

In this intensely proud service, some say they're being prematurely judged. Others grasp for plausible explanations behind the alleged slaughter.

A Pentagon official said this month that evidence collected in the Nov. 19, 2005 killings supports accusations that U.S. Marines deliberately shot the civilians, including unarmed women and children.

The commander of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force must eventually endorse the investigation's findings before charges are formally pressed.

Marines don't see themselves as common grunts. Most Marines join their service knowing that America heavily relies on them in ground wars. To some, they are the modern day version of Roman legionnaires, reflected in a famous saying that claims Marines "guard heaven's gates."

If the Haditha allegations are true, it would call into question what Marines consider their strengths: Discipline in the ranks and holding the high moral ground in wartime.

Marines are alleged to have covered up the Haditha killings for weeks. Moreover, the nature of the incident was not discovered internally: The investigation was launched only after Time magazine questioned U.S. commanders about the civilian deaths.

Senior Marine commanders insist the investigation will not damage the Corps irrevocably.

"We're going to come out of this just fine," said Lt. Gen. James Amos, the outgoing commander of the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force. "I don't know what the investigation is going to say. The truth will come out and the Marine Corps is going to do the right thing. The American people will know the truth."

But on the front lines of the war, grunts and field commanders say the allegations have further complicated a difficult task. About 20,000 Marines are thinly spread out over violent Anbar province, a North Carolina-size area with over a million Sunni Arabs at the forefront of the insurgency.

Cpl. Luis Perez, 22, of Lusby, Md., who is stationed in Ramadi, said the case "kind of makes you want someone higher up to be there to make sure you're completely in the right" when instinct says to fire.

Perez said insurgents in Ramadi had been increasingly firing from mosques to try to "lure us into doing something that we don't want to do."

Commanders in the field have echoed an array of challenges stemming from the Haditha case. Arab television networks have regularly covered the investigation's progress.

"The Iraqi people are going to perceive that everybody does business this way, and that's not the case," said Capt. Andrew Del Gaudio, 30, a New Yorker who leads a company of Marines in Ramadi. "We inherently have a responsibility to apply our craft with humanity ... and to apply a proportionate amount of force to a threat."

Many grunts in the field privately complain that outsiders unfamiliar with the pressures of a counterinsurgency war unfairly condemn the accused men. Some expressed anger at what they considered political attacks directed at the Marines — instead of against policy-makers in Washington.

"Institutionally, it's sad because we've been prejudged by many. Many who have qualms against the (Bush) administration use this," said Col. Juan Ayala, a 26-year veteran of the Marine Corps who now trains the Iraqi army. "You see an institution that you really love taking slaps ... but if guys are guilty of disobeying the law of armed conflict, they should face justice."

U.S. commanders were concerned enough by the investigation's initial findings to order U.S. troops in Iraq to undergo refresher training in "core values," including how to treat Iraq civilians.

"The core values training that we just completed is one of those things that I think we need to do from time to time again just to make sure we understand the complexity of the environment that we are in, and how our training fits, how our values fit into a different culture," said Maj. Gen. Richard C. Zilmer, the top Marine commander in Iraq.

Other changes have been implemented as a result of the investigation. After a Marine spokesman repeatedly defended the accused Marines — reportedly going as far as to accuse a Time magazine reporter of believing al-Qaida propaganda — official statements now undergo greater scrutiny before they are released.

Some Marines privately speculated that the troops under investigation probably unleashed their anger on civilians who likely knew who planted the bomb that killed a young lance corporal, triggering the bloodletting. In most parts of Iraq, civilians stay silent after insurgent attacks, either out of fear or sympathy for militants.

"We are not tasked with doing something simple," said Del Gaudio — just as a suicide car bomb exploded down the street from his base, shattering windows and wounding four soldiers. A few minutes later Del Gaudio continued.

"I've told my Marines since Day One: I will always stand beside any decision they make. ... Anytime they shoot someone I want them to have a clear conscience," he said. "It is too dangerous to foster that type of (second-guessing) environment. It's inherently a relationship of trust with me and my Marines. I trust that we have trained them the right way."

Since the accused battalion in Haditha was on its third tour in Iraq in three years, some have blamed repeated deployments for sparking the killings. Seven Marines and a sailor from another battalion also on its third Iraq tour are accused of unjustifiably killing a man in the western town of Hamdania. Both battalions took part in the storming of Fallujah in Nov. 2004.

But some have pointed out that the senior officer accused of overseeing the alleged killings in Haditha was only in the third month of his first tour in Iraq. Some commanders contend that multiple deployments were likely not a factor in such incidents.

"These guys enlisted after 9/11. And to a man I'd say they wanted to go to war," said Lt. Col. Patrick Looney, who commanded Marines from the 3rd Battalion, 5th Regiment charged in the Hamdania killing. "They knew they were going to war."

[NormsRevenge]

U.S. Marine Sgt. Gideon Hornung, 23, assigned to the 3rd Battalion, 3rd Regiment, takes a break while other Marines, unseen, establish a lookout post in a local resident's home during a patrol through Haditha, 220 kilometers (140 miles) northwest of Baghdad, Thursday, Aug. 10, 2006. Allegations that Marines deliberately killed 24 civilians last November in this troublesome city, including several women and children, has prompted reactions ranging from shame and anger to disbelief within the Marine Corps. (AP Photo/Antonio Castaneda)

[Khepera]

just more bullshit from the terrorist propaganda machine.

[NormsRevenge]

Thanks Murtha, You prick!

U.S. Rep. John P. Murtha, D-Pa., left, talks with Bill McMullen before they enter a campaign stop for Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell in Carrolltown, Pa. on Wedneday, Aug. 2, 2006. A Marine Corps sergeant under investigation in connection with the deaths of 24 Iraqi civilians in Haditha is accusing Rep. John P. Murtha of defaming him in public comments about the case. (AP Photo/Keith Srakocic)

---

Hayden Malloy, 3, shies away from U.S. Rep. John P. Murtha, D-Pa., left, as he enters a campaign stop for Pennsylvania Governor Ed Rendell in Carrolltown, Pa. on Wednesday, Aug. 2, 2006. A Marine Corps sergeant under investigation in connection with the deaths of 24 Iraqi civilians in Haditha is accusing Rep. John P. Murtha of defaming him in public comments about the case. (AP Photo/Keith Srakocic)

[NormsRevenge]

Help the 'Pendleton 8' and their families.

Charity for the Pendleton 8. Click here. Mailing address available only now, paypal within the week.


Ongoing Coverage: Hamdania
FRom the North County Times




The 'Pendleton 8': A look at the 7 Marines and Navy corpsman charged in Hamdania incident
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1670877/posts

VIDEO-Camp Pendleton demonstration for Marines
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1655852/posts

Marine families wait and worry; (Frustrations, anger expressed by relatives of Pendleton 8)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1671948/posts

-0-

Attorney: Col. visited ‘Pendleton 8’ before announcing charges
Navy Times article - 07/28/06

Accused troops' supporters busy fundraising - Hamdaniya / 'Pendleton 8' defense funds ^
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1654104/posts

Dozens rally at Camp Pendleton gates(24 June 2006) ^
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1655341/posts

Military justice under spotlight in Hamdania case - 'Pendleton 8' - 7 Marines, 1 Navy Corpsman ^
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1655333/posts

Lawyers for Marines, medic plan counterattack in Iraq murder case - Hamdaniya - 'Pendleton 8' ^
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1656712/posts

FREE REPUBLIC EXCLUSIVE: DIRECT INFORMATION ON THE 7 MARINES AND SAILOR HELD FOR MURDER
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1659084/posts

Defending the accused: Many attorneys in Hamdania case practiced law .. in military - 'Pendleton 8'
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1659351/posts

Letter reportedly from accused servicemen expresses thanks(Camp Pendleton 8)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1660140/posts

Delay is likely for (Camp)Pendleton(8) hearings
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1668925/posts

Attorneys for accused troops say Marine Corps hampering defenses
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1669976/posts

-0-

Some of the familes and supporters of the 7 Hamdaniya Marines & a Navy Corpsman, now charged with multiple criminal offenses, have setup web sites for use in accepting donations for legal defense funds or sending notes of encouragement and support to the detainees and their families.

Cpl. Robert Pennington
http://www.defendrob.com

PFC John Jodka
http://www.innocentmarine.com

Tyler Jackson
http://www.fightingfortyler.com

Cpl. Marshall Magincalda
http://www.defendourmarine.com

Cpl. Trent Thomas
http://www.defensefundformyhero.com

Lance Cpl Jerry Shumate
http://friendsofjerry.blogspot.com/


Hospital Corpsman Third Class Melson J. Bacos
http://patriotdefensefund.com/


Other sites supporting the men:

http://www.defendthetruth.com

http://www.warrior-fund.org

If your financial situation permits, please help as you can to cover legal representation costs.

Thanks!

[NormsRevenge]

It never stops... you got to give 'em that.

I know what else I'd like to give 'em.

[NormsRevenge]

fyi

[capt. norm]

Am I the only one that is wondering who the photographer(s) at Haditha were and how much of their press output has been "photoshopped"?

[TankerKC]

Cpl. Luis Perez, 22, of Lusby, Md., who is stationed in Ramadi, said the case "kind of makes you want someone higher up to be there to make sure you're completely in the right" when instinct says to fire.

Mission Accomplished for the Muzzies and their enablers in the MSM.

[caisson71]

The terrorists amongst us will make every attempt to attack the instututions that are subject to the Commander-In-Chief because that is who they are after. They'll slash and burn everyone in their way to destroying Bush.

[Coop]

And Jack Murtha's gonna get away with slandering the Corps...

... unless FReepers get off their duffs, support his worthy opponent, and help VFTT hold a successful (read: well attended) Boot Murtha rally on 1 Oct.

[Rate_Determining_Step]

I sure as hell hope that they don't get railroaded like Lt. Ilario Pantano. They rushed to judgment on him and didn't do a serious investigation, instead relying on an account from an unbalanced Sergeant who was recently demoted. Lt.d Pantano stood his ground and fought back. He was cleared of all charges. A damn fine Marine.

Read his story here.

[NormsRevenge]

I agree, they are working together whether they admit it or even realize it.. the desired end effect is the same..

[radar101]

Not just propaganda.
It is very subtle but it is like a Defense Attorney who creates a "Reasonable Doubt" in some ignorant juror's head.
It goes like this:
A. THEY ARE ALL CIVILIANS! How many Coalition troops have been maimed and killed by an opposing MILITARY? NONE.
Because, they don't wear uniforms while waging war. They are CIVILIANS, courtesy of CNN,CBS,ABC, Al-Jazeera.
B. When you shoot to protect yourself, you are shooting at a CIVILIAN. Our PC Military kisses the raghead's ass, and says" Oh, My goodness-we can't be doing that!"
C. You lock up some that have defended themselves under conditions that warrant return of deadly force. You treat these guys worse than animals or Guantanamo "Detainees".
Word gets out.
D. Some young Marine on patrol sees something, and instinct tells him that he is about to be shot. He holds fire because he can't shoot at CIVILIANS--and is shot.
CBS, CNN, Al-Jazeera and Jack Murtha win another one.

My complaint is that Top Management does not have the balls or spine to tell the ragheads "Police your own, or you will wish Attila the Hun was here, and not us".

[NormsRevenge]

Thanks!

I have heard and seen Lt. Ilario Pantano a number of times on radio and TV talk shows, he is a good man and a fine Marine. Here's hoping he is a face of the Marines in a future Congressional slot.. having Murtha acting as if he is representative of the finest traditions of the Marines is pure BS. We can do so much better.

[BW2221]

It's no better for the Border Patrol officers who shot a Mexican drug smuggler in the butt. The U.S. Attorney gave the drug smuggler immunity for testifying against the agents. The agents have been convicted and face up to 20 years in jail while the drug smuggler is suing the Border Patrol for $5 million.

[shield]

bttt

[sgtbono2002]

Traitors like Murtha are worth a Battalion to the enemy.

He should be tried and shot.

[girlangler]

Good point. I remember reading here on FR shortly after these charges came to light about some Iraqi photographers who were the first to photograph that scene.

And, I bookmarked some of those threads. Here they are:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1645392/posts

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1647811/posts?page=6

[capt. norm]

Thanx for the URLs. I'm going on a safari through them to see what's there.

I Like you screen name and tagline.

The day I can't fish (weather and regulations permitting) is a sad day indeed. I love the fact that you really can't get too old to fish and I intend to keep proving it.