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Still Slandering the Troops
WinterSoldier.com ^ | August 15, 2006 | Scott Swett

Posted on 08/15/2006 10:01:29 AM PDT by Interesting Times

On August 8th, the Los Angeles Times published a long article in which Nick Turse and Deborah Nelson reported that Army investigators had substantiated 320 U.S. atrocities during the Vietnam War. It is not clear what the Times meant by "substantiated," since many of these investigations did not lead to criminal charges. It is also difficult to determine how many of the events, if confirmed, would qualify as war crimes, since Turse and Nelson did not distinguish between ordinary crimes by soldiers and military atrocities. The only "news" presented in the Times article was that documents on file in the National Archives appear to support the claim of James Henry, then a 20-year old medic, to have witnessed a war crime in the province of Quang Nam.

Why would the Times make available 4,400 words of valuable space to allow a relatively obscure researcher to expound his theories about the Vietnam War? Because James Henry was one of the men who testified at the Vietnam Veterans Against the War's signature "war crimes" propaganda effort, the "Winter Soldier Investigation," held in Detroit in early 1971. Henry's own story predated the VVAW event, and was already being investigated by the Army by that time. Winter Soldier provided the basis for John Kerry's April 1971 testimony before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, during which Kerry became a media star by comparing U.S. troops in Vietnam to "the army of Genghis Kahn" and charging the U.S. military with routinely committing war crimes "authorized at all levels of command." This lie, which came under intense criticism and exposure during the 2004 presidential campaign, is a central part of the leftist myth that America is the primary cause of evil in the world. And it is this lie that the Times seeks to defend.

Authors Turse and Nelson are careful to avoid providing context for the U.S. atrocities that did occur. More than 2.6 million Americans served in Vietnam over a ten-year period. By comparison, Detroit, population 1.5 million, reported 690 homicides in 1971 alone - the same year that John Kerry and his fellow radicals met there to swap stories about U.S. war crimes.

Nick Turse has written about the Winter Soldiers before. In a 2004 article published in the leftist Village Voice just six weeks before the election, Turse claimed to have found documentary evidence that many of the "war crimes" reported by the VVAW radicals were true. His "proof" of this contention was that military authorities prosecuted and convicted men for crimes in Vietnam similar to those the VVAW described. In fact, the evidence suggests quite the opposite conclusion – that if the Winter Soldiers had been telling the truth, the military would likely have initiated charges based on their accounts as well. The more plausible explanation is that some VVAW witnesses simply repeated stories and rumors they had heard as though these were their own experiences, in order to make atrocities seem far more common than they really were.

It is unclear how Turse and Nelson obtained unredacted files from the National Archives. Under the Privacy Act, references identifying individuals must be removed before documents are made available to researchers, yet Turse apparently was given access to 9,000 pages of unprocessed material. The Times' article hints darkly that the government tried to cover up the War Crimes Working Group files, but that is not the case. These records, which have never been treated differently from other military documents, were declassified more than 10 years ago.

All the Winter Soldier allegations were considered for possible investigation and pursued to various extents, depending on the cooperation of each WSI witness with military authorities and the credibility of his story. The U.S. Army CID (Criminal Investigative Division) declined to open cases for a number of the allegations – 33 of the 76 Army witnesses were discarded at the outset – because their claims were either obviously false or did not qualify as criminal violations. Of the remaining 43 witnesses, 25 "refused to provide factual data," 13 provided information that "did not support the allegations," and the remaining five could not be located.

None of the investigations resulted in criminal indictments.

Now, after scrutinizing thousands of pages of records, Turse and Nelson have identified a single case in which atrocity claims made by a Winter Soldier may have been prematurely dismissed by investigators. They use this case to argue that the other VVAW allegations were largely true.

It would be astonishing if none of the hundreds of atrocities alleged by the Winter Soldiers actually occurred. The law of averages pretty much guarantees that the VVAW, seeking far and wide for veterans who could be persuaded to tell such stories, would stumble across a few men who were telling the truth. The complete absence of outside verification for any of the Winter Soldier accounts, coupled with the fact that military authorities investigated them carefully and declined to file any charges, shows what a small percentage the truth-tellers must have been.

But telling the truth was never the purpose of Winter Soldier and the other war crimes tribunals. Like the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong representatives they worked with and supported, VVAW leaders relentlessly exaggerated American war crimes in Vietnam as a political tactic.

Largely lost in the focus on the relatively few U.S. atrocities is the horrific toll North Vietnamese and Viet Cong terrorism took on the South Vietnamese people. Who now recalls the 1968 mass murder at Hue? As part of their failed Tet Offensive of that year, the Viet Cong seized and held the old imperial capital for 25 days, during which time communist cadres rounded up thousands of people to be "re-educated." After U.S. and South Vietnamese forces liberated the city, it was discovered that some 5,000 people were missing. Weeks later a farmer walking through ravines outside the city stumbled on a piece of wire sticking out of the ground. When he kicked at it, it came out with a hand attached. That was the beginning of the discovery of the bodies, which had been buried in mass graves. Thousands of civilians had been buried alive, shot in the back of the head, or strangled. Many of the victims had their hands tied behind their backs with wire.

Unlike the largely imaginary stories of the VVAW, the Hue Massacre, by far the most horrific war crime committed during the Vietnam War, was never reported on American television.

The VVAW's Winter Soldier conference remains what it always was – a leftist propaganda effort aimed at destroying support for the war, for the military, and for America by peddling the Big Lie that our troops, rather than those of the enemy, routinely committed war crimes in Vietnam.

As we see, that effort still goes on.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: johnkerry; kerryin2008; latimes; nickturse; propaganda; proppingupkerry; scottswett; vvaw; warcrimes; wintersoldiercom; wintersoldiers
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Still setting the record straight...
1 posted on 08/15/2006 10:01:30 AM PDT by Interesting Times
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To: Howlin; eddie willers; cajungirl; wirestripper; Southflanknorthpawsis; Peach; prairiebreeze; ...

Kerry and the vets ping...


2 posted on 08/15/2006 10:02:27 AM PDT by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: Interesting Times

If the media covered WWII the way they have covered recent military actions, we would all be speaking German or Japanese now.


3 posted on 08/15/2006 10:03:58 AM PDT by BW2221
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To: Interesting Times

Could you please remove my name from your ping list?.... I appreciate your consieration. Thanks.


4 posted on 08/15/2006 10:05:00 AM PDT by deport
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To: Interesting Times

So that's 320 incidents over 4015 days, that's one every 12days from over one million war fighters in country. What American city has a better crime rate?


5 posted on 08/15/2006 10:07:20 AM PDT by jmaroneps37 (John Spencer: Fighting to save America from Hillary Clinton..)
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To: Interesting Times

BTTT


6 posted on 08/15/2006 10:16:34 AM PDT by E.G.C.
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To: Interesting Times

So, MAYBE one (1) "Winter Soldier" wasn't lying out his ass. But even if he was, John Kerry's still proud of leading the enemy proganda effort stateside.


7 posted on 08/15/2006 10:19:06 AM PDT by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
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To: deport
Could you please remove my name from your ping list?.... I appreciate your consieration. Thanks.

Done.

8 posted on 08/15/2006 10:21:21 AM PDT by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: Stultis
So, MAYBE one (1) "Winter Soldier" wasn't lying out his ass. But even if he was, John Kerry's still proud of leading the enemy proganda effort stateside.

It's also worth noting that Henry went public well before the Winter Soldier event, unlike most of the VVAW "witnesses" Kerry was so eager to quote...

9 posted on 08/15/2006 10:22:42 AM PDT by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: Stultis

As I recall, one of the key actual "vets" touted by Kerry during this "Winter Soldier" business last year recanted everything he said in 1970 about the supposed "atrocities" he'd witnessed in Vietnam and said he'd been haunted by his well-publicized lies (pushed into it by Kerry and his allies in the left movement) ever since. At least he was an actual veteran of the war, and not like the bozo/jerk whom Kerry supported who had NEVER SERVED in Vietnam yet claimed he witnessed all sorts of horrible things there in Winter Soldier testimony and in an appearance before Scuba Kennedy in Congress.


10 posted on 08/15/2006 10:24:06 AM PDT by laconic
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To: BW2221
If the media covered WWII the way they have covered recent military actions, we would all be speaking German or Japanese now.

The U.S. of the early 1940s was fairly intolerant of sedition. I suspect that coverage of WWII similar to what we read today would have led to the trials of a number of journalists and editors...

11 posted on 08/15/2006 10:25:35 AM PDT by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: laconic
As I recall, one of the key actual "vets" touted by Kerry during this "Winter Soldier" business last year recanted everything he said in 1970 about the supposed "atrocities" he'd witnessed in Vietnam and said he'd been haunted by his well-publicized lies (pushed into it by Kerry and his allies in the left movement) ever since.

You're thinking of Steve Pitkin, whose story and affidavit were published by WinterSoldier.com in September 2004.

12 posted on 08/15/2006 10:27:44 AM PDT by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: Interesting Times
The old saying "keep your friends close and the enemies of your country even closer" is the only reason to see and hear with what propaganda the MSM is selling.
13 posted on 08/15/2006 10:38:44 AM PDT by TYVets (God so loved the world he didn't send a committee)
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To: Interesting Times

Excellent! Thank you. I'm glad that you and others are setting the record straight.


14 posted on 08/15/2006 11:47:23 AM PDT by zot (GWB -- the most slandered man of this decade)
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To: BW2221
Precisely. I made the comment last week as the UN was hurrying to finalize a ceasefire between Israel and the Hezbos that it's a good thing the UN wasn't around to try to impose a ceasefire between the Allies and Germany in 1944.

Wars should be fought to win, not to implement a status quo stalemate. I'm not going to suggest that I know anything about international affairs and diplomacy, but Israel should have told the UN that it's objective was to eliminate Hezbollah, and that it would "cease fire" as soon as all the Hezbos were dead.

15 posted on 08/15/2006 11:47:53 AM PDT by My2Cents (A pirate's life for me.)
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To: Interesting Times
This article reminds me of the "combat axiom"; "You can tell how important an enemy position is by how desperately he defends it."

These are leftist memes that help hold their coalition together:

"The United States lost the Vietnam War of Independence. The U.S. was the aggressor. It was the anti-war faction that won. The U.S. killed tens of thousands of civilian non-combatants. The Viet-Cong were the good guys merely fighting for their freedom."

Your excellent article attacks these premises on their face and refutes them. Outstanding!

TS

16 posted on 08/15/2006 1:02:11 PM PDT by The Shrew (www.swiftvets.com & www.wintersoldier.com - The Truth Shall Set YOU Free!)
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To: The Shrew

Well, like they say, those who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it...


17 posted on 08/15/2006 1:06:56 PM PDT by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: Interesting Times
Too bad we do not have a 'blockbuster' film. . .telling the truth of John Kerry; his life before. . .during and post war.

The truth. . .flashed up, of course, just enough to get past the dullness of the man himself.

18 posted on 08/15/2006 1:36:55 PM PDT by cricket (Live Liberal free. . .or suffer their consequences. . .)
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To: Interesting Times
Unlike the largely imaginary stories of the VVAW, the Hue Massacre, by far the most horrific war crime committed during the Vietnam War, was never reported on American television.

I returned to CONUS at the end of April, 1968 – and was shocked to find out that no one here knew about that massacre - or other atrocities committed by VC/NVA forces. All they knew about was some of the fabricated incidents involving US Troops.
19 posted on 08/15/2006 1:55:10 PM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink)
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To: R. Scott
and you were SHOCKED by the FACT that the "mainstream media" KNOWINGLY & routinely LIES????

it was not/IS not any surprise to me, as i've "caught them" in TOO MANY lies.

imVho, LYING for political purposes OR "to make a better story" is the "stock in trade" of American mass media. period. end of story.

free dixie,sw

20 posted on 08/15/2006 2:20:17 PM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: Interesting Times

Thanks for posting! Please add me to your ping list.


21 posted on 08/15/2006 2:33:09 PM PDT by GoodWithBarbarians JustForKaos (LIBS = Lewd Insane Babbling Scum)
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To: Interesting Times; xzins; CMS; The Sailor; txradioguy; Jet Jaguar; Defender2; OneLoyalAmerican; ...
"Yes, indeed- John Kerry thinks it's 1971 all over again. Yesterday, on "Face the Nation"
John Kerry once again slams American troops- Check it out-

"And there is no reason, Bob, that young American soldiers need to be going into homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the-of-the historical customs, religious customs."

Here is the transcript for "Face the Nation"-

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/face_120405.pdf

You will find this statement at the bottom of page 4 and the top of page 5.



"When former Attorney General Ramsey Clark isn’t defending Saddam Hussein, or giving speeches for the crypto-Stalinist International ANSWER, he’s acting as counsel for the Palestine Liberation Organization, trying to prevent families of murdered Jews from collecting on judgments against the PLO."
Little Green Footballs ^ | November 28, 2005 | Charles Johnson


From Kerry's "The New Soldier":

Al Hubbard Sgt., 22 Troop Carrier Squadron Aug. ’65-June ’66
Emotions: Walking down the flight line at Saigon past stacks of aluminum cases containing American bodies and past stacks of aluminum luggage containing American currency. Seeing the tight, sad face of an Airman loading the bodies aboard a dirty Air Force Transport and the wide smiling face of a stewardess greeting the passengers aboard a clean Pan American Clipper Jet. Hearing a Vietnamese beg you to leave his country and an American colonel tells you to bomb his country. Hearing a Vietnamese invite you to live in his home, after the war and an American explain why you can’t live in his block, after the war. Flying over barren, brown, safe American held terrain and over lush, green unsafe enemy terrain. Feeling happy to be leaving a country in which you do not belong and sad to be returning to a country in which you are not allowed to belong. Sacrificing a portion of your consciousness so you won’t have to deal with being there and building mental blocks so you won’t have to deal with having been there.

- Al Hubbard, proven fraud who never set foot in Viet Nam. The only Vietnamese he ever met was when he was collaborating with the North Vietnamese in Paris on the American Communist Party's nickel.

John Kerry's explanation: "He (Hubbard) simply exaggarated his particular position.
But nobody knew it at the time.
And those things happen."


Free online version of
hanoi kerry's playbook "The New Soldier"
You can read it online right now.







22 posted on 08/15/2006 2:36:21 PM PDT by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Have you said Thank You to a service man or woman today?)
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To: Interesting Times

Bump


23 posted on 08/15/2006 2:45:17 PM PDT by Ditto
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To: stand watie
and you were SHOCKED by the FACT that the "mainstream media" KNOWINGLY & routinely LIES????

Back in April of 1968 I was – but I had been out of the USA for over a year and a half except for a short leave, and I didn't waste much of that leave watching TV.
24 posted on 08/15/2006 2:45:24 PM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink)
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To: R. Scott
i wasn't yet in the Army in 4/68;i was a junior in college. (7/69 was when i entered EAD.)

by the end of 1965, the press was CONSTANTLY LYING about our troops in RVN and about many OTHER ISSUES, too.

as a result, absent INDEPENDENT PROOF, i trust NOTHING the "mainSLIME media" says/prints.

free dixie,sw

25 posted on 08/15/2006 2:52:11 PM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub; All

26 posted on 08/15/2006 2:58:43 PM PDT by Gucho
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To: stand watie

I didn’t see much TV news or read many American newspapers from October 1965 until around summer of 1970. When I returned from RVN I stayed at Fort Eustis only a couple weeks before being sent to Okinawa.


27 posted on 08/15/2006 3:05:15 PM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink)
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To: GoodWithBarbarians JustForKaos
Thanks for posting! Please add me to your ping list.

Done.

28 posted on 08/15/2006 3:18:57 PM PDT by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub
That despicable cretin is actually considering running again in 2008.....BRING.IT.ON!

Oh how I LOATHE him.

29 posted on 08/15/2006 5:05:31 PM PDT by Just A Nobody (NEVER AGAIN..Support our Troops! www.irey.com and www.vets4Irey.com - Now more than Ever!)
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To: Interesting Times
Thank you for continuing to set the record straight.

some VVAW witnesses demonRATS simply repeated stories and rumors they had heard as though these were their own experiences, in order to make atrocities seem far more common than they really were.

It is amazing how well the demonRATS and their propaganda arm, the ENEMEDIA, have learned their lessons.

30 posted on 08/15/2006 5:08:08 PM PDT by Just A Nobody (NEVER AGAIN..Support our Troops! www.irey.com and www.vets4Irey.com - Now more than Ever!)
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To: Interesting Times
Charity for the Pendleton 8. Click here. Paypal Available!! For every donation of $20, the doner will receive a free T-shirt to help spread the news of these brave Americans. Be sure to include your size of MEdium, Large, X-Large or XX-Large. Click on the T-shirts for a direct link to PAYPAL.

PAYPAL VERIFIED ACCOUNT


31 posted on 08/15/2006 6:09:04 PM PDT by RaceBannon (Innocent until proven guilty: The Pendleton 8)
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To: 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub; devolve; ntnychik; PhilDragoo; bitt; Smartass

32 posted on 08/15/2006 7:15:58 PM PDT by potlatch (Does a clean house indicate that there is a broken computer in it?)
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To: potlatch


Somebody give that kid a Hershey bar!


33 posted on 08/15/2006 7:26:07 PM PDT by devolve (fx 9125_AMERICANS_KILLED_2003_BY_ILLEGALS MEX_ILLEGAL_GOT_911_TERRORISTS_ID NO_NUEVO_TEJAS)
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To: devolve

Not enough pictures of what all the troops have handed out to those kids. Possibly that generation will appreciate Americans more.


34 posted on 08/15/2006 7:29:35 PM PDT by potlatch (Does a clean house indicate that there is a broken computer in it?)
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To: Interesting Times; potlatch; PhilDragoo; ntnychik; smoothsailing




35 posted on 08/15/2006 7:36:24 PM PDT by devolve (fx 9125_AMERICANS_KILLED_2003_BY_ILLEGALS MEX_ILLEGAL_GOT_911_TERRORISTS_ID NO_NUEVO_TEJAS)
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To: devolve

That drive-by media is getting some good sight seeing today!

In your posts!


36 posted on 08/15/2006 7:39:17 PM PDT by potlatch (Does a clean house indicate that there is a broken computer in it?)
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To: R. Scott
understood. when i entered AD, i was able to receive BBC & CFN overseas shortwave broadcasts.

free dixie,sw

37 posted on 08/15/2006 7:44:36 PM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: Interesting Times
Over there in '69, after the Tet Offensive, much of the talk was of what was found in Hue. It never made the papers. Investigative reporters never left Saigon to look into the mass murder committed by VC and NVA troops on The Imperial Capital's school teachers, university professors, doctors, lawyers and elites of the society. What happened in Hue was ignored. What happened at My Lai was headlines and stories for years.

I still don't have a handle on what happened at My Lai. Most came through the media filter. I do have a picture of what happened in Hue, unfiltered, from Marines and Viet Namese who were there.

And the news reporters were still in Saigon's hotels and bars.........writing copy.
38 posted on 08/15/2006 7:49:34 PM PDT by BIGLOOK (Keelhauling is a sensible solution to mutiny.)
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To: potlatch

Good post of something never seen on the broadcast networks.


39 posted on 08/15/2006 7:54:06 PM PDT by ntnychik
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To: devolve

I like that "drive-by" drive-by media slogan.


40 posted on 08/15/2006 7:55:36 PM PDT by ntnychik
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To: potlatch


location location location

I did not plan that!


41 posted on 08/15/2006 7:58:13 PM PDT by devolve (fx 9125_AMERICANS_KILLED_2003_BY_ILLEGALS MEX_ILLEGAL_GOT_911_TERRORISTS_ID NO_NUEVO_TEJAS)
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To: ntnychik

Very true, I should make up more picts of 'good things'.


42 posted on 08/15/2006 8:00:56 PM PDT by potlatch (Does a clean house indicate that there is a broken computer in it?)
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To: devolve

Seems I recall it being 'located' on another location!!


43 posted on 08/15/2006 8:01:40 PM PDT by potlatch (Does a clean house indicate that there is a broken computer in it?)
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To: devolve
The quote supposedly from Murtha "Victory is not a strategy."

Would you be so good as to advise me where I can get a source for it?

44 posted on 08/15/2006 8:33:23 PM PDT by Neil E. Wright (An oath is FOREVER)
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To: Interesting Times

Kerry......still a traitor!

thanks for the ping!


45 posted on 08/15/2006 8:56:30 PM PDT by JulieRNR21 (Go Katherine! ALL your base are belong to us! Go here: http://www.ElectHarris.org)
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To: Interesting Times

HAWK! Spit!!!


there. I feel better. Thanks for the ping.


46 posted on 08/15/2006 9:12:39 PM PDT by bitt ("And an angel still rides in the whirlwind and directs this storm.")
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To: stand watie

We did have AFN radio, but it was primarily an entertainment medium. The news was generated by military reporters. It was usually accurate from what I observed until Tet 68 broke out – but I really can’t blame them for slipping up on their initial reporting on that party.


47 posted on 08/16/2006 3:36:39 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink)
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To: R. Scott
me neither.

fwiw, it sometimes is HANDY being a HAM Operator.

free dixie,sw

48 posted on 08/16/2006 6:15:22 AM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: Neil E. Wright

John Murtha on Hairball with Hissy Mathews, November 20, 2005:

"There is no exit strategy. The path to victory — victory is not a strategy."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10101618/


49 posted on 08/16/2006 7:06:38 AM PDT by Just A Nobody (NEVER AGAIN..Support our Troops! www.irey.com and www.vets4Irey.com - Now more than Ever!)
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To: stand watie

There were times I wished we had a HAM on the boat.


50 posted on 08/16/2006 8:32:19 AM PDT by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink)
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