Germany won't send troops, may offer naval forces

JPost ^ | 8/17/06

[bnelson44]

German Chancellor Angela Merkel said Thursday that Germany would not send combat troops as part of the contemplated international peacekeeping force in Lebanon, but may offer naval forces to help patrol the country's coastline.

Merkel said Germany was looking at "naval security" as part of its effort to support the force, after meeting with parliamentary leaders.

Parliament must approve any deployment, and the German government has warned it can't make a concrete offer until rules of engagement are clarified.

[kesg]

Great. Just great.

[Condor 63]

the more likely that Israsel can get out of this awful deal.

And go back to doing what they should have been allowed to do in the first place without International pressure.

I hope.

Agree 100% This might once and for all prove that UN style peace keeping is a total farce and shut some of these whiners up.

[kesg]

Agree 100% This might once and for all prove that UN style peace keeping is a total farce and shut some of these whiners up.

It won't. Trust me on this. Bet the ranch, your first born, and your life savings.

[Bazooka]

"Imagine a German soldier accidently killing a Jew."

Well, in case that happens, and people start bringing up history, they might as well bring the USS Liberty back into the picture. Remember, over 30 US Navy personnel, 1967....?

[Condor 63]

Bet the ranch, your first born, and your life savings.

0 fer 3.

Mathematically there is still a chance for first born. LOL

[BookaT]

I got an Effing Geman Officer to Volunteer.

Nah, Joerg!

Bastad!

[Dawggie]

Now that I think about it, German troops would be cooler. Esp if they learn the goose step before they embark. Scare the cheese out of everybody. Think all the comie-libs would blow a gasket.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Very good point, but I think an Iowa Class would be more impressive. Make big boom and they still float. Wish we still had one active.

Sorry, but the Iowa class is completly outdated and its 16"-guns are too expensive and (compared to the price to maintain such heavy equipment) ineffective. They were "top of the line" in 1939 when they have been introduced. Today they are simply scrap. Maybe you remember the shelling (after the Marines left the country due to their heavy losses in a terror act of the Hezzies) of northern Lebanon in 1984 that ended in some impressive fireworks but with no measurable effect (I think a few people including a Syrian commander died, but nothing really decisive).

The US navy would be much better off if they buy modern German naval technology if they are interested in the capability of traditional shelling of hostile land with ships:

Modular Naval Artillery Concept (MONARC) was a study of the German defence industry about mounting the turret of the PzH 2000 self-propelled howitzer on a naval ship of frigate size.

The size required above and below deck and the weight of this turret are not much different to the OTO Melara 76mm gun system, the standard naval gun of the German Navy. But to deal with the much greater recoil of the 155 mm artillery piece on such a small vessel, a flexible mount with damping elements had to be designed.

This mount and a PzH 2000's turret was fitted experimentally in December 2002 on the Type 124 Sachsen class frigate Hamburg at the shipyards of HDW in Kiel, when she was still fitting out. 2004 the fire-control system was tested with a PzH 2000 strapped onto the helicopter deck of Hessen, another Type 124 frigate. The feasibilty of using even the unmodified PzH 2000 with unguided "dumb" rounds to attack naval targets had been proven previously by the Swedish Coastal Artillery with tests performed in May 1996.

Rheinmetall, the producer of PzH 2000's gun system, plans to design special smart naval rounds that will boost the range of the gun from 30km with standard NATO ammunition and 40km with assisted rounds to over 80km, more than many anti-ship missiles.

The future F125 class frigate will very likely make use of this concept.

155 mm/52 MONARC on German Frigate FGS Hamburg

155 mm/52 MONARC prototype at Rheinmetall proving range in Unterlüß in June 2003 Note the elaborate "Flexible Mounting" required

The Panzerhaubitze 2000, or PzH 2000 for short, is a 155mm self-propelled howitzer developed by Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW) together with Rheinmetall for the German Army. It is arguably the most powerful artillery system currently deployed. It is particularly notable for a very high rate of fire; in burst mode it can fire three rounds in 9 seconds, ten rounds in 56 seconds, and can fire between 10 and 13 rounds per minute continuously depending on barrel heating. PzH 2000 has also been selected by the Italian, Dutch and Greek Armies, and more orders are highly likely as forces upgrade their outdated M109 Paladins.

The loading of shells is automated, two operators should be able to load 60 shells in 12 minutes.

In April 2006 a PzH 2000 shot assisted shells (Denel V-Lap) over a distance of 56km with a probable maximum range of over 60km

Although the caliber is smaller it is possible to provide equal much (or effectivly even more) firepower that is much more accurate with 3 small and cheap frigates. If the MONARAC turrets are deployed on a larger ship than a frigate you have a very effective possibility to bombard cheaply hostile territory.

[Dawggie]

"Sorry, but the Iowa class is completely outdated and its 16"-guns are too expensive..." Yeah, I know . I was drawing a comparison to mentioned Scharnhorst and Tirpitz which no longer float.

[JerseyHighlander]

Now, I don't know the specifics, but there are in the historical record of the Nazis multitudes of incidents where Nazis went about providing falsehoods of convenience to Jewish victims in the moments before they were further victimized and persecuted one incremental step further towards their annihilation.

I'm sure these historical facts will be brought forward by Jewish and WWII historians in the coming hours.

If it comes to pass the Germans went into negotiations with no true intentions to provide any forces for ceasefire duty, that the Germans did a trial balloon of them offering troops as a way to allay the Israelis apprehensions, that Germany will now recant all future options of German soldiers entering Lebanon, that German taxpayer monies will be used as collateral, loan and or grant money to the Lebanese government(and funneled to Hezbollah to reentrench and rearm), and that the Germans will further hold Israel to a truce built upon German diplomatic false pretensions, the whole damn world should hear about it, and Israel should throw it back into the Germans faces.

[Atlantic Bridge]

Blah...Blah...Blah. Complete BS.

It is indeed a problem for German millitary to be involved into such a operation. We do not know the exact conditions of the mandate for such a UN-force in the moment. The thing is that it would probably part of the mandate to protect Lebanese civillians (as well as those of Israel) from armed hostillities. This is the reason why the UN peace troop will be no direct "ally" of Israel but a neutral power between Israel and Libanon. Therefore UN troops could be engaged into a conflict with Israeli troops in case of their retaliation for possible terror acts of the Hezzies.

We contemporary Germans stick to the conditions and the words of the treaties we sign. Since we are no "Dutchbatters" (if you remember the chicken-hearted Dutch troops that betrayed the civillians they should protect from their Serbian murderers), it is better for us (and the Israelis) to stay out of a conflict were we a no neutral force. Germany understands itself as a ally of Israel. Since it is completely UNTHINKABLE that German forces have armed hostilities with the troops of Israel this was the right decision.

Besides to the maritime deployment it will be thinkable to help both Israel and Lebanon with armed Federal Policemen (German police was always very effective in such cases) to control the border of Syria and Lebanon to chop the weapon deliveries to Hezbollah from Iran and Syria. A direct deployment of German forces between Israels boarder and the Litani river is not helpful because of the given historic situation.

Your statement, that Germany offered troops except of the offical statement yesterday is false. In difference to the US-President i.e. the chancellor is unable to send troops into a millitary action except of the direct defense of Germany on her own responsibility. Millitary actions are decided by German Bundestag, the parliament. This is the reason why there was a discussion if we should do or not. To discuss and to offer are fundamental differences. BTW - the difficult German way in millitary decisions is something that is fundamentally criticized by Donald Rumsfeld i.e. since it makes German forces useless for "police actions" due to the fact that it takes weeks and months until the political discussion process and the parliamental decision is finished. Personally I think our system is not that bad since the question about war or not should be most closely in the hands of our sovereign - our people.

If you do not know the specifics of a issue you are well advised to stay out of a discussion, since wrong statements and lies (your imagination that it must be that way because of your own limited individual view of things is not enough) are simply a form of dumb propaganda.

Regards from Germany

AB

[wny]

Europe is pathetic.

[agere_contra]

The Germans show excellent good sense.

No-one should serve under "Field-Marshal Annan"

[sukhoi-30mki]

The USN's 127mm guns can fire rocket assisted shells upto 100kms out with rocket boosters & is also working on dedicated 155mm guns.The Monarc,though would be a good option for smaller navies to retrofit on their major surface vessels & would be more cost effective than an expensive cruise missile.GIAT of France is also reportedly working on modified 155mm guns for naval roles.

[PsyOp]

U-Boats?

[Atlantic Bridge]

The Germans show excellent good sense. No-one should serve under "Field-Marshal Annan"

My words... :-)