Posted on 10/07/2006 6:40:10 AM PDT by NYer
You are definitely on the list.
Thanks.
I've had many experiences in my Christian walk and conversion. Jesus Christ delivered me from 10yrs of drunkeness and drug abuse. After three rehab centers, phychologist and psychiatrist said there was little hope. Jesus Christ set me free instantly! That was 25yrs ago---I praise Him and give Him all the glory. Experiences, I've had plenty. I've had experiences, sensed His presence on many occasions and cherish each moment. Some of the experiences and voices that I thought at the time were God, proved in the long run to be deceiving spirits. That's why God's word must take precedent over experience. In the end, when we all stand before God at judgment whether for our sin or our works, experience will not hold water. The only thing that will hold water is that which we will be judged by, THE WORD OF GOD.
Seeing the church has existed for 2000 years and that a 1000 years to God is as but a day in time to God -- a 100 years could very well be a fad.
I recall the Apostle Paul saying, "let all things be done decently and IN ORDER."
That straw dog is a very annoying one, to me.
Certainly THE WORD IS CRUCIAL AND PARAMOUNT IN A LONG LIST OF WAYS. AND EXPERIENCE MUST BE TESTED AGAINST IT.
But it is an outrageously disingenuous and false dichotomy to put
EXPERIENCE on one side and THE WRITTEN WORD on another.
It's utterly foolish.
NO ONE WOULD HAVE
ANY
AWARENESS
THERE EVEN WAS A WORD OF GOD
APART FROM
THEIR
. . .
. . .
. . .
. . .
EXPERIENCE
OF INK ON PRINTED PAGES.
Sheesh.
Sorry, but that's a hobby horse of mine.
I agree with you in your examples. But the lengths many folks take that to really grates on me because of the utter logical, practical falseness of the lengths they take it to.
And I've heard AS MANY GROSS ERRORS in discernment, Biblical facts and doctrines out of preachers PREACHING THE WORD who were hostile to the Spitirual gifts in our era . . . as I ever have out of 'strange fire' or misguided beginners or poor teaching and training.
Thanks for your kind msg.
Paul was writing to a church in Corinth that was in error and giving the body of Christ a bad name. They were out of order, drifting into error, and needed to straighten up their act. Drifting into mysticism and spiritualism thinking they were God's elite and others were somewhat inferior in their walk with God. They didn't even want to discipline a man for sleeping with his step-mother. They believed in real liberty in Christ.
So right on -- miracles, signs & wonders can convert no one. It takes the penetrating Word of God to change a heart. Then may follow some wonderful experiences in God's presence.
I know the circumstance...but that doesn't negate the fact that even in that context, Paul wasn't advocating abandonment of the gifts in operation. He was cautioning regarding how to have them operational in an orderly way. Again, the point is they do have their place in a corporate worship service.
I agree to a certain extent. The question is, are "revelation gifts" still operational or did they cease with the Canon? If they did not cease, we should be writing down the tongues messages, prophecies, and miracles, continue writing the book of Acts and "add to the Word of God." When someone speaks in tongues with a public message, they are claiming to be speaking on behalf of God and if they are, the interpretation is the inspired Word of God and should become part of Scripture. How far do we go with this thing? Here lies the problem with continuing some of the gifts in today's church. Do I believe God heals? Yes! Do I believe God has empowered some man today with the gift to heal? No! If so he should empty out a hospital to give some credibility to his claim.
The classic biblicist rub with modern pentecostals is that it's an unmonitored phenomenon (nobody is translating) and that the sign function (witness to unbelievers who speak that tongue) seems to be little used if not totally absent. That runs afoul of the canons that St. Paul, for good reason, established. I've heard a horror story of a group of pentecostals having at it in an actual foreign language (Polish) while responding with "bless the Lord" in English, and somebody walked in who knew Polish and was aghast to hear that they weren't blessing God in Polish but cursing Him. That's why this kind of stuff really shouldn't go unmonitored.
Why -- He didn't heal but one cripple at a densely attended pond that was supposed to be for healing of the infirm.
Probably sent chills up the spine of the one who understood in English. That's how many would distinguish the true prophecy from the false in pentecostal circles. Even when it disagrees with Scripture as has happened on many occasions with the imfamous "Hen-Master" (alias Benny the Hen). They will swallow just about anything from a self-appointed anointed guru! I know --- been there and done that!
Sunday eve bump!
Yes, there need to be believers around who can candidly discern what is happening. Tongues of themselves are neutral, like the technology of radio broadcasting. The use they are put to is not neutral; either it can be used by evil spirits or blessed ones.
Somehow I seem to have missed Pentacostals and charismatics murdering millions. I majored in history and am 58 years old. Maybe by "some of us are old enough to remember" you meant "some of us are suffering from confusion and terminal dementia enough to 'remember'...."?
(No, I'm neither charismatic nor Pentecostal)
At this church I went to they had requests for songs. I requested "What a friend we have in Jesus". At the end of the song the song leader said, "now let's sing a song more uplifting". I was dumbstruck. I thought to myself what could be more uplifting than What a friend we have in Jesus? They liked singing those songs with the repetitive verses. I like the old time hymns. I love to sing them because they have so much meaning. I would never darken those doors of that church ever again. Plus they had a lot of seriously dysfunctional people attending. Not that a church isn't where they should go, but they had some issues, and some with a position in the church. I found it much safer to just watch Dr. Stanley, someone who is very grounded in the scriptures.
Jesus left us the Holy Spirit to continue to reveal and guide. The Holy Spirit works through the gifts. He, however, doesn't do anything that contradicts scripture. If God didn't want to continue to work in our lives why would the Holy Spirit be necessary? God provides a dimension unknown to the world when we walk in the Spirit.
I Corinthians 2:6-16
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"[b]— 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"[d] But we have the mind of Christ
So right on -- miracles, signs & wonders can convert no one. It takes the penetrating Word of God to change a heart. Then may follow some wonderful experiences in God's presence.
= = = = = =
Folks out in the real world un-mangled by Harvard and other theological centers of UN'truth' know quite well from hard experience the realities of demonic forces etc.
They are not interested in theological discussions. They want to know if GOD IS REALLY GOD AND IF HE WILL MAKE A TANGIBLE DIFFERENCE IN THEIR LIVES.
Miracles drew folks to Christ in His earthly ministry and gave him much more of an opportunity and open doors and open hearts to draw them deeply into Himself.
The same is true today.
A false dichotomy is nonsense.
JESUS THE RISEN LORD IS A MIRACLE WORKING GOD.
"THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW . . . "
WHO?
"THEM THAT BELIEVE."
There may be some justification to question one's belief is such signs have never followed.
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