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1 posted on 12/01/2006 3:48:26 AM PST by Northern Alliance
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To: Northern Alliance
...Islamic theology itself negates these very concepts (human rights, basic freedoms, rule of law, or democracy, making any rapprochement between Islam and Western values impossible without abandoning the most basic tenets of Islam itself.

It pissed me off yesterday when ABC radio news said that the purpose of Benedict's visit was to "mend fences," as if the Pope had done something to legitimately offend Islamo-psychoes.

The only offense Benedict has committed against them is the same one any non-Muslim is committing... existing.

They want us all dead. How hard is that to comprehend?

2 posted on 12/01/2006 3:55:55 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam is a religion of peace, and Muslims reserve the right to kill anyone who says otherwise.)
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To: Northern Alliance
Excellent, well written article that explains much of Islamic philosophy. Worth reading.
4 posted on 12/01/2006 4:18:13 AM PST by marktwain
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To: Northern Alliance
If Tariq Ramadan is really serious about a dialogue between Islam and the West and cultivating Western values amongst Muslims (and there is some reason to believe that he isn't serious), it must not only be open, but honest as well.

Honesty in Islam is not possible given the concept of al-Taqiyya

al-Taqiyya/Dissimulation (Part I)

al-Taqiyya/Dissimulation (Part II)

al-Taqiyya/Dissimulation (Part III)
5 posted on 12/01/2006 4:18:15 AM PST by Man50D (Fair Tax , you earn it , you keep it!)
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To: Northern Alliance

That headline should be: Rationality and the Problem of Islam.


6 posted on 12/01/2006 4:19:53 AM PST by AntiGuv ("..I do things for political expediency.." - Sen. John McCain on FOX News)
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To: Northern Alliance
Excellent article.

We really should dispense with all the philosophy foreplay and sophistry Tariq Ramadan pushes and deal with these irrational animals already.

Looks like the Pope is moving the chess pieces around by visiting the head of 300 million Orthodox church

7 posted on 12/01/2006 4:23:14 AM PST by Popman ("What I was doing wasn't living, it was dying. I really think God had better plans for me.")
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To: Northern Alliance

Very thought provoking. Thanks for posting.


8 posted on 12/01/2006 4:25:25 AM PST by DugwayDuke (Conservative have so many principles that they won't even vote for themselves.)
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To: Fzob

Thought this would interest you


9 posted on 12/01/2006 4:27:16 AM PST by Popman ("What I was doing wasn't living, it was dying. I really think God had better plans for me.")
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To: Northern Alliance; E. Pluribus Unum
"Islamic theology itself negates these very concepts (human rights, basic freedoms, rule of law, or democracy, making any rapprochement between Islam and Western values impossible without abandoning the most basic tenets of Islam itself."

This quote jumped out at me, too. I note immediately the way Ramadan himself might have put it:

" Islamic theology itself negates these very concepts (human rights, basic freedoms, rule of law, or democracy, making any rapprochement between Islam and Western values impossible without abandoning the most basic tenets of Christianity itself."

This, in a strange way, is why I think liberals like muslims so much. Both have incoherent philosophies and both would sooner stop breathing than abandon them. Both, in their own ways, fight any intrusion of rational thought into any debate involving them, for that is the one arena in which they have no weapon of self defense.

The fact that the two groups' own philosophies are diametrically opposed doesn't interfere with the liberal's thought processes because they fight the same battle. Politically, muslims tolerate liberals for the momentary convenience of it. The reality of events is harsher, but the liberals' incoherence allows them to ignore it.
11 posted on 12/01/2006 4:30:28 AM PST by wgflyer (Liberalism is to society what HIV is to the immune system.)
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To: Northern Alliance

One of the things that is conveniently overlooked by the Islamists among us is that just prior to the Muslim invasion of Spain, Isidore of Sevilla had written the Etymologies, a vast 20-volume compendium of "all human knowledge" at the time (7th century). All of the West was struggling from the barbarian invasions, which destroyed Classical culture, and people like Isidore were instrumental in seeking to recover the lost knowledge. He collected and recopied classical sources, although by that time, after the barbarian invasions, there was a more limited supply of classical works in the West. The work, however, was important even into the Rennaissance, and preserved many classical writings that were completely lost by that time.

The first Muslim rulers (after the 8th century invasions of Spain) were not Arabs, but were recently converted people from Baghdad and Persia, areas which had a long pre-Islamic tradition of learning, science and art. Many of these areas also had some of the lost classical originals, and brought them into the Spanish research world. However, as Islam consolidated, particularly with the influence of the writings of its ignorant Arab founder and leaders, who then attacked the other Muslims in Spain and replaced them, it gradually stifled learning. Rechristianized parts of Spain, such as Toledo, resumed scholarship with things such as the famous "School of Translators" of the Christian king Alfonso X, where Christian, Jewish and Arab linguists were set to work translating works ranging from Scripture to Aristotle. Alfonso's Siete Partidas, one of the first modern codes of law, was influenced by his Classical research.

The fundamental dynamic of Islam is anti-knowledge, anti-scientific; it was only in its early phase, before it had fully consolidated, that science and art were even permitted, and as it became more established, it crushed them wherever it found them and to this day is a dead hand on any society it enters.


12 posted on 12/01/2006 4:32:02 AM PST by livius
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To: Northern Alliance
Moses Maimonides (1135-1204), who lived and wrote in Muslim-occupied Spain.

Actually Maimonides and his family had to flee from idyllic Spain when he was still relatively young. They first went to Morocco, and eventually to Egypt, so I would guess that Maimonides didn't do much of his writing in Spain.

ML/NJ

14 posted on 12/01/2006 4:38:13 AM PST by ml/nj
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To: Northern Alliance
I'm reading Karen Armstrong's Islam: A Short History, and these are the issues I encountered yesterday. There were two main opposing philosophical camps in early Islam. The rationalist camp held that ijtihad, independent reasoning, was capable of determining right from wrong even when the Quran did not directly address contemporary circumstances. They were also the camp most likely to support the rights of other cultures who had received their own revelation (ahl al-kitaab). The other camp believed the sole sources of right and wrong were the Quran, the sayings of the Prophet (hadith), and the customs of his culture (sunnah).

These two forces found their level in Ashariism, which acknowledged the utility of reasoning, but only the Quran, the Hadith, the Sunnah, and the customs of the entire Ummah were sources of legislation. At that point, any custom widely adopted by the Ummah could be viewed as correct, because Allah would not allow the entire Ummah to be deceived -- that's how headcovering became customary for all Muslim women. Originally, only Mohammed's wives were required to cover their heads, but Muslim invaders soon encountered Byzantine women who wore headcoverings as a status symbol. Women in Muslim garrison towns wanted to look good for the dhimmis, the fashion spread, and a Quranic justification was found for it.

By the fourteenth century, the Sunni declared the gates of ijtihad to be closed and that all past legal decisions were sufficient for modern and future use. This locked many Muslims into the fourteenth-century's juridical interpretation of seventh-century tribal custom. Reforming this aspect of the culture from the inside will be a task equal to, or greater than, such movements as the Protestant Reformation. But it may be the best hope for Islamic civilization.

18 posted on 12/01/2006 5:03:44 AM PST by Caesar Soze
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To: Northern Alliance

One thing I like about the Bible is that even if you don't believe it is the divinely inspired Word of God you can still find wonderful stories and great wisdom in its pages. Personally, I believe it's the Word of God.

One of its pearls of wisdom is when Jesus told his disciples that you know a tree by it fruit. Pretty simple, huh? You can put a sign on a grapevine identifying it as a naval orange tree and people who don't know different will believe you. But once that vine bears fruit there is little doubt as to what kind of plant you're dealing with. The Islamic tree is bearing fruit, and I don't see any evidence of the fruit of the tree being peace. The fruit it bears is an anathema to every principle I believe is taught in the Bible.

If they want to consider their tree to be a Peace Tree then they are going to have to show me some Peace fruit from the tree. What I am seeing all over the world right now, being done in the name of their Peace Tree is anything but.


27 posted on 12/01/2006 5:40:28 AM PST by jwparkerjr
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To: Northern Alliance

save


28 posted on 12/01/2006 5:40:31 AM PST by Eagles6 (Dig deeper, more ammo.)
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To: Northern Alliance

good article


29 posted on 12/01/2006 6:10:06 AM PST by Cruz
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To: Northern Alliance

good article


30 posted on 12/01/2006 6:10:13 AM PST by Cruz
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To: Northern Alliance
I had made similar observations here

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1712730/posts

Averroes 'dual truth' doctrine is indeed part of the foundations of European culture: it is adhered to by all the secularists who regard religion or 'spirituality' as a private sphere where relativist notions like 'your truth' apply, while science is taken as giving a different notion of truth. It, at least, unlike al-Ghazali's occasionalism didn't kill off the possibility of empirical science.

I'm suprised Ramadan had the timerity to include al-Ghazali in his recitation. The lunatic Palestinian sheik I was critiquing in the second part of the linked piece, at least had the wit to only invoke Avicenna and Averroes in his attempt to claim rationality for Islam.

31 posted on 12/01/2006 6:20:56 AM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: Northern Alliance

Where Islam failed was in not having either a Renaissance nor an Enlightenment. Those two events moved western religious and political thought away from the dogmatism of the Medieval period and advanced the idea of individual liberty.


38 posted on 12/01/2006 9:10:13 AM PST by The Great RJ ("Mir we bleiwen wat mir sin" or "We want to remain what we are." ..Luxembourg motto)
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To: Northern Alliance
Occasionalism is the belief that in the natural world, what is perceived as cause and effect between objects is mere appearance, not reality. Instead, only Allah truly acts with real effect; all seemingly natural observances of causation are merely manifestations of Allah's habits, for Allah simultaneously creates both the cause and the effect according to his arbitrary will.

When Alice fell down the rabbithole & entered Wonderland was she actually in Mecca?

39 posted on 12/01/2006 9:23:30 AM PST by Tallguy
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