Helicopter down in Baghdad; 5 killed

AP via Yahoo ^ | 1/23/07 | KIM GAMEL

[Sword_Svalbardt]

Ambush, they were laying in wait for the bird - so just like number 2, when do we get to start busting some serious butt over there?

[Democratshavenobrains]

As long as the media think of every soldier death as more newsworthy than a thousand terrorist deaths, the Left will win the casualty fights.

[leadpenny]

Very low or very high. In Vietnam we tried to stay under 50' or over 1500' to avoid small arms fire.

That said, I'd rather go back to Vietnam for a couple of tours than put up for even a month of urban operations like what these guys are dealing with.

[Marine_Uncle]

Kind thoughts and a prayer for those in need at the wake you are going to.

[Southack]

"Sounds like it's turning into Afghanistan when the Soviets fought there."

Nope. Back then in Afghanistan, the Mujahedeen were shooting down Soviet fighter jets, bombers, as well as regularly downing helicopters (often more than one per *day*).

Same for Vietnam.

Today in Afghanistan and Iraq, the anti-U.S. forces are unable to knock down a single fighter jet, certainly no bombers, and the news of even a *civilian* helicopter crash (e.g. this thread's news on Blackwater) is treated as some sort of watershed event (it's not).

[Southack]

Nope. See post #25.

[TADSLOS]

"What altitude are they flying at? Small arms fire downing them???"

Helicopters fly very low to limit their exposure to groundfire.

During their war in Afganistan, we supplied the mujahadeen with something like 2,000 stingers. It looks like Iran is a student of history and is doing to us what we did to the USSR.

First of all, there's no confirmation that the aircraft was shot down. It could have been, or it could have crashed for any other number of reasons (mechanical failure/wire strike/pilot error, etc..).

Blackwater crews fly at the airspeeds, altitudes and evasive profiles it takes to conduct their mission. They are very aggressive. These are very skilled, very high time crews, most with extensive background in special operations aviation.

Regardless, there are inherent risks in flying these aircraft in the profiles they operate in. It comes with the job and the crewmembers accept this (although it doesn't make it any easier on the rest of us). As with most helicopters, you may have to land and take off again at some point in a mission. This is where you're usually the most vulnerable, especially in urban terrain- low, slow and usually in a steep approach to land or near vertical climb on departure. This requires the pilot to use more power than usual, which increases engine exhaust heat creating a higher target signature for a MANPAD seeker to lock onto.

And, MANPADS, since they were developed, always have been and remain a helicopter crew's worst nightmare. There is no early warning for a heat seeker; they almost always engage from the rear making them hard or impossible to see coming at you and there is no guarantee that any flares the crew may dispense will spoof the missile.

Also, if the aircraft was shot down over the neighborhood mentioned, there's a good chance that the Sunnis and/or al Qaeda are responsible for it in this case, not an Iranian or Iraqi Shiite.

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf"- George Orwell

Thank God for these fallen men and God bless their families and comrades in the days ahead.

[fieldmarshaldj]

May they rest in peace. Prayers for the families.

[Ollie Wight]

Amen.

May they rest in pieces.

These brave men in their deaths Iraq has certainly become a safer place.

These damn terrorist insurgents and Foriegn fighters must be taken care off.

Time for the gloves to come off.

[greenhornet68]

I heard on the radio this morning that four of them had gunshot wounds to the head. So much for our following Geneva Conventions and our rules of conduct.

[Albert Barr]

It seems to me with the increase in contact with the enemy that the surge is already on. We cannot afford to wait for them to come to us, we must take the fight to them. We must win every street every alley every house and we must do it with extreme aggression. It is not in our interest to announce the beginning of every new phase. It is in our interest that when it is over the results are clear. As we ramp up the hostilities towards the enemy there are going to be more and more stories like this one. Our job here at home is to remain steadfast in our support of the mission and the CIC. This is a battle that will not be won overnight. The generals are saying maybe by the end of the summer. I believe this war is about to get a lot nastier than it has ever been. We must remain strong, and we must keep the pressure on our "representatives" in congress to shut the hell up.

[TexKat]

Thank you Marine-Uncle.

[TexKat]

oK!

[TexKat]

Photograph released by Ansar al-Sunnah Army, an Iraqi insurgent group, shows ID badges and a driver's licence of Arthur Laguna, a 52-year-old pilot for Blackwater, a U.S. security company. Laguna's helicopter crashed as it flew over a dangerous Sunni neighborhood in the central Baghdad. (AP Photo)

5 Americans killed after helicopter crashes in central Baghdad

By Qassim Abdul-Zahra, Canadian Press

Published: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 Article tools BAGHDAD (AP) - Four of the five Americans killed when a U.S. security company's helicopter crashed in a dangerous Sunni neighbourhood in central Baghdad were shot execution style in the back the head, an Iraqi military official said Wednesday.

The official who, like all others, spoke on condition of anonymity because details had not been made public said the four were shot while on the ground. He gave no other details.

A U.S. official in Baghdad, however, had earlier said there was no information to substantiate the report that the bodies had been shot execution style.

The senior Iraqi military official said the helicopter had been shot down, but this was disputed by a U.S. military official in Washington. The Iraqi said the helicopter was hit by a machine gunner over the Fadhil neighbourhood on the east side of the Tigris River, while the U.S. official said there was no indication in initial reports that the aircraft, owned by Blackwater USA, had been shot down. The Americans said they did not know what caused the aircraft to crash.

Blackwater USA confirmed that five Americans employed by the North Carolina-based company as security professionals were killed. The statement from spokeswoman Anne Tyrrell did not provide identities or any details of the fighting.

On Wednesday, U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad offered condolences for the five Americans killed, calling them good men and saying he had travelled with them.

"We had a very bad day yesterday," Khalilzad told reporters during a roundtable discussion at the embassy in the heavily fortified Green Zone in Baghdad. "We lost five fine men."

He said he had travelled with the men who were killed and had gone to the morgue to view the bodies, although he didn't say where that was.

Khalilzad did not give more details, saying the crash was still under investigation and it was difficult to know exactly what happened because of "the fog of war."

An embassy official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said three Blackwater helicopters were involved. One had landed for an unknown reason and one of the Blackwater employees was shot at that point, he said. That helicopter apparently was able to take off but a second one then crashed in the same area, he added without explaining the involvement of the third helicopter.

The Qatar-based Al-Jazeera television reported that the 1920 Revolution Brigades insurgent group claimed responsibility for shooting down the helicopter and showed a video taken by a cell phone of a mass of still-smouldering twisted metal that it was said was the wreckage of the chopper.

Another Sunni insurgent group, the Ansar al-Sunnah Army, also claimed responsibility for the same attack and posted identity cards of men who were on the helicopter on a website, including at least two that bore the name of Arthur Laguna, who was later identified by his mother as among those killed.

The New York Times reported the helicopter went down as it came under attack and plummeted to the pavement through a tangle of electrical wires, but it was unclear if the crash resulted from gunfire, the wires or an effort to land.

Quoting unnamed American officials, the newspaper said the helicopter's four-man crew was killed along with a gunner on a second Blackwater helicopter.

Witnesses in the Fadhil neighbourhood told the AP that they saw the helicopter go down after gunmen on the ground opened fire, possibly striking the pilot or co-pilot or both. Accounts varied, but all were consistent that at least one person operating the aircraft had been shot and badly hurt before the crash.

The helicopter was believed to have been flying escort above a VIP convoy on the ground as it headed away from the heavily fortified Green Zone to an undisclosed destination. A report in the Washington Post, also citing unnamed U.S. officials, said one of the Blackwater victims was killed as he travelled with the convoy on the ground.

The Washington-based site Institute, which monitors terrorism websites, said in a report on its website, that the Ansar al-Sunnah Army published photos of what it said were the U.S. Embassy badge, credit cards and dog tags of one of the casualties in the attack.

Among the dead was Laguna, a 52-year-old pilot for Blackwater who previously served in the Army and the California National Guard, his mother, Lydia Laguna, of Rio Linda, Calif., told the AP in a telephone interview Tuesday night.

She said she received a call from her other son, also a Blackwater pilot in Baghdad, notifying her of Arthur's death. Laguna said she was expecting to receive more details of the crash Wednesday.

Blackwater USA provides security for State Department officials in Iraq, trains military units from around the world, and works for corporate clients.

"These untimely deaths are a reminder of the extraordinary circumstances under which our professionals voluntarily serve to bring freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people," the Blackwater statement said

[TexKat]

Photograph released by Ansar al-Sunnah Army, an Iraqi insurgent group, shows ID badges of Arthur Laguna, a 52-year-old pilot for Blackwater, a U.S. security company. Laguna's helicopter crashed as it flew over a dangerous Sunni neighborhood in the central Baghdad, Iraq, Tuesday Jan. 23, 2007. A U.S. official said five American civilians on board were killed. (AP Photo)

What is the Ansar Al-Sunnah Army?

Ansar Al-Sunnah Army is an Islamic salafist and Sunni group that announced its establishment five months after the occupation of Iraq. It is a combination of Islamic groups that are opposed to the US occupation of Iraq. All these factions and individuals merged into one Islamic group called Ansar Al-Sunnah Army to distinguish itself from the Shiite “Al-Mahdi Army,” which was established by Muqtada al-Sadr, and other Shiite movements. Ansar Al-Sunnah Army is a purely Sunni group that has no relationship with the Shiites in Iraq. Its tenets are clear in the statements it issues. Abu-Abdallah al-Hasan Bin-Mahmud, the amir of Ansar Al-Sunnah Army, underlined the following points:

The reason behind the establishment of Ansar Al-Sunnah Army

In its first statement to the press on 20 September 2003, Ansar Al-Sunnah Army said: “It is known that jihad in Iraq has become an individual duty of every Muslim after the atheist enemy assailed the territory of Islam.

Those who raise the banner of the blessed jihad are the Sunnis, the Ansar Al-Sunnah Army, and the proponents of tawhid (Islamic concept of monotheism) and Al-Salafiyah. They took action all by themselves and moved into groups, each from their own territory. They derive their jihadist program and orders from the holy Koran and the Sunnah of the Prophet” (his sayings and doings).

[TexKat]

[SunkenCiv]

Why are the insurgents detonating bombs near our houses every day? Everyday we have a blast, what have we done wrong?"

Well, we can't blame the old woman, she didn't vote in the American elections... ;')

[Sword_Svalbardt]

Now you know where I'm coming from. We need to start making examples. Iraq is not 18th century Europe, if you know what I mean. Follow the old premise - there are no rules to love and war.

Kill them all!

[nw_arizona_granny]

Thank you for the ping.

My heart goes out to this mother, she is in my prayers.

Her load is heavy. As are the loads of so many mothers.

I have almost been afraid to ask about your son, is he safe?

[TexKat]

Hi granny, yes my son is safe and is in God's hands. He is in training now, preparing for upcoming Iraq tour #3. Please keep him as well as all of our other troops in your prayers. But then I know that you will.

Good health is in my prayers for you Granny. May God continue to bless you!