Posted on 02/06/2007 10:43:27 AM PST by ElkGroveDan
“Murder and graffiti are two vastly different crimes,” Rudy Giuliani once said. “But they are part of the same continuum, and a climate that tolerates one is more likely to tolerate the other.”
Good point, Rudy.
Now, what about a climate — not to mention a Republican presidential candidate — that not only tolerates, but allows unelected judges to legalize the practice of delivering a child until only its head remains within its mothers womb so the child can be killed by sucking out its brains?
What about a climate where same-sex couples are given the same legal status as married couples, whether the resulting arrangements are candidly called “same-sex marriages,” or are semantically papered-over with terms such as “civil unions” or “domestic partnerships”?
Apply the Giuliani Continuum to fundamental issues such as marriage and the right to life, and where does it lead?
Not where conservatives want America to be.
Rudy Giuliani’s observation about the “continuum” running from graffiti to murder was quoted in a piece in the winter edition of City Journal by Steven Malanga. The title of Malanga’s piece neatly encapsulates his argument: “Yes, Rudy is a Conservative — and an electable one at that.”
I believe Malanga is wrong on both counts. Rudy is neither conservative, nor electable — at least, not as a Republican presidential candidate.
As Malanga seems to define it, a politician dedicated to good police work and free-market economics qualifies as a conservative. “Far from being a liberal,” Malanga writes of Giuliani, “he ran New York with a conservative’s priorities: government exists above all to keep people safe in their homes and in the streets, he said, not to redistribute income, run a welfare state, or perform social engineering. The private economy, not government, creates opportunity, he argued; government should just deliver basic services well and then get out of the private sector’s way.”
But that’s not enough. While advocating law and order, self-reliance, and capitalism is laudable, it does not entitle a politician to a free pass for advocating other causes that are deeply destructive of American society.
While it is always wrong to take an innocent human life — whether on a New York sidewalk or in a mother’s womb — Giuliani is highly selective in applying this principle. In 1999, when he was pondering a run for the U.S. Senate, he was asked whether he supported banning partial-birth abortion. “No, I have not supported that,” he said, “and I don’t see my position on that changing.”
“I'm pro-gay rights,” he also said. Indeed, his position is so radical in this area that as New York City mayor he promoted a city ordinance that removed the distinctions in municipal law between married and unmarried couples, regardless of their gender.
“What it really is doing is preventing discrimination against people who have different sexual orientations, or make different preferences in which they want to lead their lives,” Giuliani said, explaining the ordinance to the New York Times. “Domestic partnerships not only affect gays and lesbians, but they also affect heterosexuals who choose to lead their lives in different ways.”
In other words, preserving a legal order that prefers traditional marriage and traditional families is “discrimination.”
Giuliani’s positions on abortion and marriage disqualify him as a conservative because they annihilate the link between the natural law and man-made laws. Indeed, they use man-made law to promote and protect acts that violate the natural law.
Given his argument that there is a “continuum” between graffiti and murder, you would think that Giuliani would understand the importance of the link between the natural law and the laws of New York City, let alone the laws of the United States. At the heart of Rudy’s “continuum” argument, is the realization that when society refuses to enforce a just law it teaches people to disrespect the moral principles underlying just laws.
The late Russell Kirk argued in The Conservative Mind that the first canon of conservatism is “[b]elief in a transcendent order, or body of natural law, which rules society as well as conscience. Political problems, at bottom, are religious and moral problems. … True politics is the art of apprehending and applying the Justice which ought to prevail in a community of souls.”
It is simply not justice to take the life of an unborn child. Nor is it justice to codify same-sex relationships so that, by design of the state itself, a child can be denied a mother or a father from birth, which is one thing legalized same-sex unions would do.
By advocating abortion on demand and same-sex unions, Rudy is doing something far more egregious than, say, defacing a New York subway train. He is defacing the institution that forms the foundation of human civilization.
That is not conservative.
Rudy will not win the Republican nomination because enough of the people who vote in Republican caucuses and primaries still respect life and marriage, and are not ready to give up on them — or on the Republican party as an agent for protecting them.
That is a brilliant quote.
Well, count my vote for Rudy. And I do vote in primaries.
don't tell that to the rudy fans on the board. That must mean that conservative primary voters actually want hillary to be elected president if they don't vote for rudy.
Immigration and gay marriage would have been stopped him from winning anyway.
Someone needs to report this thread to a mod....uh...never mind.
Rudy has a strong 84% conservative approval rating. (Battle ground poll as of Jan.11, '07)
Rudy would never get involved in any discussion of gays or abortion or anything else involving morality, since he knows he'd be (justly) accused of hypocrisy.
Indeed, in one recent poll, majorities of Republicans who were informed of Giuliani’s views on social issues said that they were either minor issues or no issues at all; only 16% said that they wouldn't vote for him after being informed of these views.
In the online GOP Bloggers poll, Giuliani is consistently one of the few candidates to end up with a net positive acceptability rating. These internet denizens are well-informed, and overwhelmingly self-describe as conservative (78% self-describe as 7 or higher on a 10-scale of conservatism). If these people can support Rudy, anyone can.
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/
"Well, count my vote for Rudy. And I do vote in primaries."
Seconded.
It's about CORE values, and Rudy is nowhere near the real Republican core values.
In fact, an exit poll question from Pew in 2004 revealed that only 3% of voters named abortion as their top voting issue, 2% named religiosity, and 2% named gay marriage.
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1780060/posts
Ultra social conservative Pat Robertson thinks Rudy would make a good president.
Asked if Giuliani would be an acceptable 2008 presidential candidate to Christian conservatives, Pat Robertson told ABC's "This Week:" "He did a super job running the city of New York and I think he'd make a good president."
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/5/1/102522.shtml
Rudy can win. He can and might actually bring some other down ticket candidates in the House and Senate with him. No other Pub candidate will do that. Surely not St.John or Mitt or Newt(sadly because he is brilliant), nor the rest of the wannabes. No Dem is worthy of the Prez or even Congress just to spite our faces with the 'perfect' conserv. Who might that be? Mike Savage, Hunter, Tancredo? Pullllleeeze. Now Hunter could be a nice VP fit if some other name raising conserv for Rudy would not be the choice.
As George Will said on “This Week,” “His eight years as mayor of New York were the most successful episode of conservative governance in this country in the last 50 years, on welfare and crime particularly." Giuliani, more than any other candidate (Romney comes the closest) has the record of taking on major institutions and reforming them. Think about tourist magnet that is New York now. When Rudy Giuliani took office, 59% of New Yorkers said they would leave the city the next day if they could. Under Rudy Giuliani’s leadership as Mayor of the nation’s largest city, murders were cut from 1,946 in 1993 to 649 in 2001, while overall crime – including rapes, assaults, burglary and auto-thefts – fell by an average of 57%. Not only did he fight crime in Gotham like Batman, despite being constantly vilified by the New York Times, he took head on the multiculturalism and victimization perpetuated by Al Sharpton and his cohort of race baiters. He ended New York’s set-aside program for minority contractors and rejected the idea of lowering standards for minorities. As far as the economy goes, Rudy reduced or eliminated 23 city taxes. He faced a $2.3 billion budget deficit but cut spending instead hiking taxes.
http://www.redstate.com/blogs/dmeaton/2007/feb/04/achieving_socially_conservative_ideals_through_liberal_means_making_the_case_for_rudy
believe that life is sacred and should not be treated as a commodity. I believe that the institution of marriage needs to be preserved. For now at least, good judges are best way to protect the institution of marriage and move America closer to the day when a debate on the local level can begin again about the value of human life. In order for us to have this debate in state legislatures we must win the next fight over the next Supreme Court vacancy, and if we lose the next presidential election than we will have taken a major step backwards in our quest to replace the current liberal ideology on the highest bench. More than any potential Republican president, Rudy Giuliani will have the easiest time getting strict constructionists confirmed to the Supreme Court and the lower courts.
Think of four scenarios: 1) A Hillary appointment 2) A court battle in which a thinly elected Republican administration that is led by someone who is avidly pro-life faces down a probably Democratic controlled Senate 3) A court battle in which the overwhelmingly elected Republican administration is led by the Bull Moose lover himself, Mr. McCain 4) A court battle in which pro-choice Giuliani, elected and respected by a huge majority of Americans, makes the argument that strict constructionist jurisprudence is needed in the 21st century. He did after all strongly support Justice Roberts, Justice Alito, and he said that he would have made Justice Scalia Chief Justice. As important, Giuliani can actually make a personal case for a specific legal doctrine. The mayor is a former high ranking Justice department attorney who has argued before the Supreme Court.
To reclaim the Senate and Congress, to hold onto the White House, to build a sustainable Republican majority, and to advance conservative principles, we Republicans must unite together and support a candidate who can win the hearts of the vast majority of Americans.
Only when we win hearts can we then win minds.
http://www.redstate.com/blogs/dmeaton/2007/feb/04/achieving_socially_conservative_ideals_through_liberal_means_making_the_case_for_rudy
This is one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever seen on FreeRepublic.
It's either Hillary or Rudy, eh?
LOL!
I plan to vote for Duncan Hunter in the primary, but if he cannot gain traction, I will vote for Rudy.
Perhaps not enough. Rudy may have the momentum to bring ALL Republicans out to the primaries.
It didn't take long for the Rudy fan club to get here did it?
What does a candidate who believes in all the "core values" get you in the general election? 40-44% of the vote and that ain't gonna cut it in 2008. Pick your battles my friend as losing in 2008 is not a pleasant thought.
This thread will prove how some "conservatives" want Republicans to lose every election possible.
Ultra social conservative is a leftist term, just like right wing extremist.
Giuliani (D-NY) is pond scum if he won't stand up for the lives of unborn children.
if all the GOP can come up with in 2008 are left-wing scum like Giuliani and McCain and if the GOP refuses to kick those 2 losers out of the party, I hope Hillary wins in 2008, maybe then the GOP will learn another lesson, they obviously learned nothing in 2006 by Pelosi taking control of the House and Republicans getting beat all across the country
fyi
Thanks for the warning. I'll hide the babies when you are out and about on election day.
I like Hunter, too. I just think Rudy can be a vocal and visual reminder of what this country faces every day. Hunter would be a good choice if were in peacetime, IMO, to get back to what conservatism should be. I think Rudy is a quality administrator and well aware of the issues we face from Islamic extremists. He's got some bags but I think he would be a good war-fighter.
It's a tough choice.
Will I get berated for questioning as follows?
Are the socons nervous about Rudy because, if he were to win, it would demonstrate that the socons are not as much of the base as they would like to believe?
Pro life conservatives are the strongest grassroots primary voters.
I could not agree more.
There are a lot of us. More than you know.
There are a lot of us. More than you know.
"Now, what about a climate — not to mention a Republican presidential candidate — that not only tolerates, but allows unelected judges to legalize the practice of delivering a child until only its head remains within its mothers womb so the child can be killed by sucking out its brains?
What about a climate where same-sex couples are given the same legal status as married couples, whether the resulting arrangements are candidly called “same-sex marriages,” or are semantically papered-over with terms such as “civil unions” or “domestic partnerships”? "
I noticed how Reagan managed to change this? Wasn't he a Conservative? How did this work out for him?
My nephew used to work for Media Research Center. Said Rudy polls very well in the Bible Belt.
The MsM loves Rudy Giuliani vs Hillary, why IS THAT?...
And NO RED FLAGS ARE GOING UP...
Are republicans autistic?..
When has he said he favors gay marriage?
In fact, he has said the opposite - he has said that he believes marriage is ONLY for a man and a woman.
What's the problem with that?
Not enough, sorry!!
I will vote for Rudy for two reasons. I believe he will fight the war on terror and be as dogged in the face of opposition as President Bush has been. Second, I like him. I can't help it. I just do.
Great...teach us all a lesson by punishing the GOP. Do you have any clue as to the damage a Hillary type can do to the country with a majority in the House and Senate? By the time you guys actually are done "teaching the GOP a lesson", you'll be paying huge taxes, there will be 2-3 liberal judges on the Supreme Court, and we might all be praying to Allah and/or speaking Spanish. Hey, at least you'll have stuck to your core values and taught the GOP a very important lesson.
The 'battle' as you put it, is not about whether Rudy can beat Hillary. Hillary will self-destruct, she can't help it. Her temper like Howard Deans mouth will expose her as 'damaged goods'. Hopefully later AFTER she wins the nomination rather than sooner.
If Rudy was a Democrat, he would be the best candidate they have. As a Republican candidate, he is what the Democrats want, Pro-abortion, pro-gun control, pro-gay marriage.
Once you have decided to give up or set aside your core values for gaining the White House, you have fallen into the hands of the RINO's.
And we have enough of those to go around now.
pretty much it.
I've seen people who claimed they'd never vote for a RINO say it HAS to be either rudy or romney, because if we run a conservative, they're going to lose and put hillary in office.
And if you don't either support a rino NOW or declare who your candidate is 22 months before the election, and tell how in the hell they could beat the unstoppable hillary, well, you just don't love america and apple pie and you want the terrorists to win.
I have been voting since 1968. I think the only primaries I ever voted in where I actually voted for the winner were 1980, '84 and '04. Other than that, my votes went to non-winners. But in the general election, I've voted for the winner in '68, '72, '80, '84, '88, '00 and '04. Seven outta ten ain't bad.
God Bless poor Pat Robertson!! He is getting old. Jesus does not support Rudy!!! Ask me how I know ? I asked him and he clearly told me ,"No Rudy"
Yes, the Rudy people are very unappeasable, aren't they?
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