Posted on 02/16/2007 8:13:17 AM PST by ckilmer
These groups are recieving positive PR on the MSM.
The Azlan and this group do not just recieve a free pass from CNN, MSNBC, AP, Reuters, FNC, and ABCCBSNBC, they recieve an outright endorsement and favorable editing.
They selectivly cut out the "kill whity" parts for the "we want jobs"
It is like jimmy carter saying one leftist thing in spanish and another benign "for the children" thing in english.
The AP
Things changed about 10 years ago. Illegals used to lay low, and go about their business. But today, their numbers are so overwhelming that they refuse to assimulate, and many are hateful and angry. We are in for real trouble in a few years.
>>Navarro is planning a march for March 17th in San Bernardino. He said they will be calling on cities such as L.A. to join them. He said if civil disobedience is needed to stop any future ICE raids, so be it. One man stated that if guns and violence are needed, they should use violence to overwhelm the white people. He encouraged the community to take what they want by overwhelming and overpowering force.<<
Thank you for the ping, B4.
Locked & loaded as we've not yet moved....
I wouldn't recommend it.
Klan With A Tan....bump
Hi, It seems you have not read recent archaeological studies of the Americas. Estimates of the population of the "lower 48" states of North America range as high as 25 million, a figure which was not reached in this area until the 1830s or 1840s. I suggest a reading of Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel" as a starting point. The "weapon" causing death to these inhabitants was usually germs as the natives had no resistance to European diseases. There were, based upon large archeological remains, large numbers of North American Indians.
I will acknowledge quite willingly that certain native societies participated in human sacrifice. It must be borne in mind that at the same time, people were burned at the stake in large numbers in Europe for heresy. Similar practices were dominant in parts of Europe until the fall of the USSR.
Most people respect the culture of ancient Egypt. Lack of the wheel didn't appear to have significantly affected the ancient population of Egypt. Lack of horses didn't halt the construction of pyramids.
Many archaeologists argue that the entire population of the Western hemisphere may have numbered as many as 200 millions of people at the time of the first significant European contacts. Mexico City at the time of the Conquest was far more populous than any city of Europe. Many cities of North American Indians may have approached or exceeded the population of Paris or London at the same time. Check on the "Mound Builders".
What the natives of the Americas lacked which was also lacking among Polynesians was resistance to European hepatitis, smallpox, measles, chicken pox, etc.
Cortez, when he approached Mexico City had never seen such a large city for the simple reason that cities of such size didn't exist anywhere except in the Western hemisphere and possibly China.
I have provided a starting point for your studies. Before you make blanket statements regarding the number of inhabitants prior to European contact, please consult original sources or at least sources that have cited original sources.
You describe "rampant cannibalism" and I wish to see your evidence of the practice among North American Indians. I am quite aware of some of the findings in the SW US and suspect them to be an aberration similar to the cannibalism reported from Leningrad in 1942.
If you truly understood the ethnic history of the Americas, you would also know that there are far more linguistic stocks in the Americas than in Eurasia. The Americans were quite diverse. This is all supposed to have happened in a period of less than 20,000 years. The invention of agriculture at least simultaneously with the same discovery in Asia, The invention of writing also happened apparently independently, even in North America. There are records in the British Museum that refer to a written language in their own tongues as early as 1640 among North American Indians.
For more recent and thoroughly documented history of what happens to a population when exposed to exotic diseases, one need look no further than the state of Hawaii. The country, at the time of discovery by Captain Cook had recently been unified and was thickly populated. Measles, and other diseases killed over 90% of the native population within two generations. More people died in following generations and the number of native Hawaiians is a tiny fraction of those in the late 18th century. Going farther back, one can read accounts of British and Spanish and French fishermen and settlers who reported large communities completely emptied within five to ten years.
The good Pilgrim Fathers raided devasted communities for the food and unearthed food that had been buried with the dead who had died of disease in order to survive. The people were dead, so no crime was committed as survival was at issue but it is false to claim that the country was unpopulated prior to European contact.
The trail of DeSoto was strewn with runaway pigs and disease. The wild pigs exist to this day in the woods of Florida, Georgia and Alabama and other states. DeSoto himself reported no bison as it appears the natives kept that population in check. By the way, De Soto appears to have not progressed much past the MIssissippi River. He might have found bison further west but reports by surviving members of his party do not describe large herds. De Soto himself reported large towns and large numbers of natives.
The bison or buffalo herds appeared in great numbers in the Eastern US only after many of the native hunters had died. The European settlement of the Carribean had much the same results. Estimates of the population of Cuba shortly after discovery range upward of 500,000 according to Spanish records.
If you wish to cite areas such as Amazonia to support your views, you are in yet more trouble. It appears that the natives built self-sustaining islands of productivity in Amazonia and had learned how to fix nutrients in a tropical rain forest. There was an interesting article in the "Wall Street Journal" on March 14, 2007 about that and it is supported by a great deal of archaelogical work.
I would also like to remind you of a great work by Pliny the elder which described the practice of human sacrifice in Classical Rome and nearby nations. No nation is without guilt in that sort of practice. One can look at obvious sacrifices at Stonehenge and at the Collosseum and find human sacrifices. For the practice of cannibalism, I would refer you to the Old Testament to indicate that it was not unknown at that time. That was perhaps the reason for the prohibitions of Leviticus.
I would be pleased to provide you with peer-reviewed articles supporting my statements.
Sincerely,
tsali
I am aware of the newer "high count literature", which has been developed by the Gramscian historical left. Yes, much of it appears in peer reviewed journals, but the Gramscians largely control the history profession, as they control some many other things in academia. The statement about large numbers having been burnt for heresy in Europe is an often repeated fabrication. Some of that occurred, but on a vastly smaller scale that is popularly believed. Surely you a kidding about the ancient Egyptians lacking the wheel... and horses for that matter.
Frankly, I don't have time to correct the many errors that you seem to embrace. They range from obvious points of fact to more subtle issues of historiography and the sociology of the modern university. You obviously are sincere, well-intentioned, and intellectually curious, and I wish you the very best.
Hi,
I have no earthly idea of the "Gramscians". Never heard of them and am not particularly interested as my discipline is one of the physical sciences.
What impresses me far more than accounts of historians of whatever persuasion is the number of artifacts and bones. As a lad, I picked up huge numbers of weapons from the fields we farmed. Matters became more complicated when we excavated a mound and found remains of huge numbers of native Americans.
It became even more complicated when I learned that neighbors had been digging up bones to use as fertilizer for a century or so before I became aware of matter in the 1950s. It simply is not economical to dig up bones and grind them as fertilizer unless the numbers are large enough to justify the enterprise. This was on a bend in a small creek. I have worked several such sites as an amateur.
One might explain literally tons of tools by saying that they were easily made but the explanation of the numbers of human bodies in areas as distant as Georgia and Arkansas and Massachusetts is tough to explain away. It gets tougher when one tries to claim that skeletons in a particular area with evidence of a particular cultures were accumulated over long periods of time.
Last I heard, one skull equalled one person. When there are a couple thousand skulls of the same period in time residing in one place, it seems likely that the people died at nearly the same time. This is especially likely when one considers the apparent causes of death. I can give you references for that.
We have information about mass graves in Kosovo and equally good information on graves in Georgia, Arkansas, Massachusetts and so on. The literary information from English and French sources in the Northeastern part of the US is about as reliable as the maps that such explorers drew.
I can provide information from oral sources but it seems that oral sources are acceptable only occasinally in the Western world. I would like to mention that the Old Testament was not set into a written form until at earliest, 300 BCE.
You criticized my mention of the lack of use of the horse and wheel in Egypt. I will accept that point and mention that horses and wheeled vehicles were products for the aristocracy of Egypt until the Ptolemaic dynasty.
The US presently has B-52s and Abrams tanks. Does that mean that such objects are in general use? I will also point out that toys with wheels have been found in Mayan tombs. None of this means that the horse or wheel had practical use in Egypt until Ptolemaic times.
I will mention the fact that nuclear armed missiles are in the arsenals of several countries. Does that mean that inhabitants of Britain, the US, Russia, France, India, China, Pakistan and perhaps Israel and North Korea and South Africa , use nuclear weapons as part of their daily lives?
When making an argument about the technology used by a nation, one probably should restrict the question to the availability of the technology. This complicates matters but history is complicated. I don't have a nuclear warhead nor do I own a B-52. In earlu Egptian rimes, I submit that people viewed a chariot in the same way as I do a tank. This isn't something I would ever but.
Take a good look at the maximum of what current technology has. Then take a look at what would be found in your local landfill. Landfills are what archaeologists use for the most part to evaluate a civilization. It looks like an archaeologist of the future would find beer cans, computer monitors and TVs and lots of plastic ties from disposable diapers.
And the government is hot to give them free stuff and amnesty for their views. Oh, and a quarter of the country to shut them up.
Ja, right.
I've been all over the Southeast and think I've found a couple of arrowheads.
My experiences show a thinly populated land.
And arrival of Europeans to North America long before Christopher Columbus would have surely jumpstarted the immune system of those early Americans, priming them for the Spanish onslaught.
I grew up in Indian country - an area of the West that was among the last settled. My great grandparents were amateur archeologists/anthropologists who collected and catalogued literally tons of Indian artifacts for museums. Apart from some things made of leather, bone, and wood, the tools were stones.
This was typical of pre-Columbian North America. Indian cultures were quite primitive compared to Europe, just as the European tribes were quite primitive compared to the Romans and the Greeks. Cultures transmit, peoples change.
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