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FRENCH NAZI COLLABORATOR - Maurice Papon is dead
Der Spiegel, Wikipedia and others | February 17, 2007 | Newsflash

Posted on 02/17/2007 8:54:48 PM PST by Atlantic Bridge

According to a article in German that was published in the German magazine "Der Spiegel" the ruthless French nazi-collaborator Maurice Papon died in the age of 96 years on February 17, 2007.

As secretary general of the prefecture Bordeaux Papon signed orders for the imprisonment and deportation or the jews in that area. Altogether there were 76.000 jews -among them 12.000 kids- arrested in France and displaced into the concentration camps of the nazis. Only 2.500 survived the Holocaust.

Papon is definitly responsible for the deportation of 1,560 Jewish men, women and children. The majority were sent directly to detention camps at Drancy internment camp, at the outskirts of Paris, and then to Auschwitz or similar concentration camps. Few survived.

By mid-1944, when it was clear that the war was turning against the Germans, Papon began to inform on the Nazis to the Resistance—for which he was later to be decorated with the treasured "Carte d'Ancien Combattant de la Resistance".

Papon retained his official functions after the war, although, according to Olivier Guichard, Charles de Gaulle "perfectly knew his past" and had received him personally after the liberation of Bordeaux.

He went to Morocco in 1954 as general secretary of the protectorate, and there helped crush the Moroccan nationalists. He then returned to Constantine in 1956 during the Algerian War (1954-62), where he actively participated in the repression and the use of torture against the civilian population.

In March 1958, he was named chief of the Paris police (préfet de police) by Félix Gaillard (Radical)'s government. As prefect of police, he had an important role in the May 13, 1958 crisis which brought de Gaulle to power. He took part in the Gaullist confidential meetings which assured the instrumentalization of the crisis, preparing de Gaulle's nomination as President of the Council, which granted him extraordinary powers. On July 12, 1961, president Charles de Gaulle bestowed on him the French Legion of Honour for service to the state.

He commanded the repression during the Paris massacre of 1961. On October 17, 1961, after a peaceful march organized by the Algerian National Liberation Front, 40 (according to French government) to 200 (according to historian Jean-Luc Einaudi) Algerian civilians were killed in Paris, many of whom thrown in the Seine river by the French police. The exact number of the dead remains unknown.

From 1967 to 1968, he was president of the company Sud Aviation. Elected deputy of Cher as candidate of the UDR Gaullist Party in 1968, he is reelected in 1973 and in 1978 (as member of the RPR neo-Gaullist party). He was also elected mayor of Saint-Amand-Montrond in 1971 and reelected in 1977.

From 1968 to 1971, he was treasurer of the Gaullist Party. President of the Commission of the Finances of the National Assembly in 1972, he is the rapporteur général du budget (deputy presenting the budget) from 1973 to 1978. He then served as Budget Minister under Prime Minister Raymond Barre and President Valéry Giscard d'Estaing from 1978 to 1981, before finishing his mayor mandate in 1983 and renouncing to political activity.

Little by little, evidence of his responsibility in the Holocaust emerged, and throughout the 1980s he fought a string of legal battles.

Le Canard enchaîné newspaper published on May 6, 1981, an article titled "Papon, aide de camps. Quand un ministre de Giscard faisait dé- porter des juifs," between the two turns of the presidential election opposing Socialist candidate François Mitterrand to the right-wing candidate Valéry Giscard d'Estaing. In this article, the newspaper showed documents signed by Papon which demonstrated his responsibility in the deportation of 1,690 Jews of Bordeaux to Drancy from 1942 to 1944.

Charges of crimes against humanity were first brought in 1983, but the whole investigation was cancelled in 1987 because of legal technicalities (a mistake by the investigative magistrate). New charges were laid in 1988, and the investigation finished in 1995. Papon finally went to trial on 8 October 1997, after fourteen years of bitter legal wrangling. The trial went on to be the longest in French history, while Papon denounced a "Moscow Trial," going so far as to assimilate his status to Alfred Dreyfus.

The trial had different meanings for different French people; for some it was the last chance to confront their collaborationist history in a court room. Because of his arrogance, his contempt and his refusal to express regrets or remorse during and since the lawsuit, Papon drew contempt from many.

Papon was accused of ordering the arrest and deportation of 1,560 Jews, including children and the elderly, between 1942 and 1944.

In his 36-minute final speech to the jury, Papon rarely evoked the victims of the Holocaust, but instead portrayed himself as a victim; of "the saddest chapter in French legal history."

Papon was convicted in 1998 and given a 10-year prison term, which was criticized by some for being too short. His lawyers filed an appeal before the Court of Cassation. As Papon had fled to Switzerland, his appeal was summarily denied because of the Court's practice of requiring persons convicted of crimes and sentenced to prison terms to give themselves up prior to the appeal. After Switzerland sent him back to France to serve his prison sentence, he was sent to La Santé jail on October 22, 1999. Papon was also stripped of all his decorations; under French law, people convicted of severe crimes cannot be members of the Legion of Honor.

He applied for release on the grounds of poor health in March 2000, but President Jacques Chirac denied the petition. He continued to fight legal battles while in prison, taking his denied appeal to the European Court of Human Rights, where he argued the French court's denial of his appeal on a technicality (rather than on the merits of the case) constituted a violation of his right to appeal his conviction. The Court agreed in July 2002, admonishing the Court of Cassation and awarding Papon FF429,192 (approx. €65,400) in legal costs, but no damages.

However, Papon's lawyers had meanwhile been pursuing a separate appeal in France, petitioning for his release under the terms of a March 2002 law that provided for the release of ill and elderly prisoners to receive outside medical care. His doctors affirmed that Papon, by this time 92 years old, was essentially incapacitated, so he became the second person released under the terms of the law, leaving jail on September 18, 2002, less than 3 years into his sentence.

The text above is a abstract to a excellent article in Wikipedia about Maurice Papon. You can read it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Papon


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News
KEYWORDS: antisemite; collaborator; drancy; france; genocide; holocaust; killer; nazi; papon; scum; shoah; vichyfrance; ww2; wwii
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He may rot in hell. There is nothing more to say.
1 posted on 02/17/2007 8:54:51 PM PST by Atlantic Bridge
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To: Red6

Concerning our discussion about capital punishment I have to admit that this guy should have been executed.


2 posted on 02/17/2007 8:58:17 PM PST by Atlantic Bridge (De omnibus dubitandum!)
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To: lizol; Michael81Dus; sergey1973; twinself; Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit; Grzegorz 246; goldstategop; ...

Western Europe Ping!


3 posted on 02/17/2007 8:59:35 PM PST by Atlantic Bridge (De omnibus dubitandum!)
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To: Atlantic Bridge
Good riddance to the scumbag.

Now what about the French who are collaborating with the enemy today?

4 posted on 02/17/2007 9:10:05 PM PST by WestVirginiaRebel (A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel-Robert Frost)
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To: Atlantic Bridge

Hope it hurt!


5 posted on 02/17/2007 9:12:08 PM PST by Boazo (From the mind of BOAZO)
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To: WestVirginiaRebel
Now what about the French who are collaborating with the enemy today?

Collaborating with the enemy is no exclusive attribute of the French. Simply take a look into your own congress.

6 posted on 02/17/2007 9:21:27 PM PST by Atlantic Bridge (De omnibus dubitandum!)
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To: Atlantic Bridge

Say Hi to Stalin and Hitler Shi#bag!!


7 posted on 02/17/2007 9:33:21 PM PST by Historix
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To: Atlantic Bridge

He is death finally? Well riddances!


8 posted on 02/17/2007 9:34:50 PM PST by Zeon Cowboy ("Show me just what Muhammad brought... and there you will find things only evil and inhuman.")
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To: Atlantic Bridge

GOOD burn in the hell you Frog wimp


9 posted on 02/17/2007 9:43:03 PM PST by SevenofNine ("We are Freepers, all your media belong to us, resistence is futile")
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To: Atlantic Bridge

I can only hope this misguided soul repented of his evil before he died.


10 posted on 02/17/2007 10:57:35 PM PST by fieldmarshaldj (Cheney X -- Destroying the Liberal Democrat Traitors By Any Means Necessary -- Ya Dig ? Sho 'Nuff.)
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To: Atlantic Bridge

In a sane world, this sonuvabitch would have been executed and his body hung in the public square to feed the birds...during the Liberation of France.

Allowing the bastard to live so long, was an insult to society..

But then, one must realize - we're talking about the French..
The French never did put much value on anyone other than their own sorry asses..

Semper Fi


11 posted on 02/17/2007 11:30:17 PM PST by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: everyone

Being responsible for deportations is not necessarily the same as conscious cooperation in the deportees' deaths. We need to drop the hysteria and get some more facts before we froth at the mouth about this.


12 posted on 02/17/2007 11:40:27 PM PST by California Patriot ("That's not Charlie the Tuna out there. It's Jaws." -- Richard Nixon)
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To: Zeon Cowboy
He is death finally? Well riddances!

How embarassment... Dealing with titles like that is unpossible.

13 posted on 02/18/2007 12:17:17 AM PST by Triggerhippie (Always use a silencer in a crowd. Loud noises offend people.)
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To: fieldmarshaldj

Papon never did recant. In an interview shortly before his death he continued to claim he was the victim of a conspiracy.

The French, having arrested him and tried him, found him guilty, and sentenced him to 10 years in prison. They let him go after only three years.

He died at 96 in his own bed.


14 posted on 02/18/2007 12:20:51 AM PST by Cincinna (HILLARY & HER HINO "We are going to take things away from you for the Common Good")
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To: All

His "soul" is far uglier than his face.


15 posted on 02/18/2007 12:29:17 AM PST by PRePublic (Ugly Nazis)
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To: PRePublic
His "soul" is far uglier than his face.

A real wonder. To outclass his sexy smile seems to be impossible to me.

16 posted on 02/18/2007 12:58:18 AM PST by Atlantic Bridge (De omnibus dubitandum!)
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To: Cincinna

A truly repellent individual. The fact that folks like this get only 10 makes ne doubt the existence of an almighty.


17 posted on 02/18/2007 1:02:14 AM PST by Clemenza (NO to Rudy in 2008! New York's Values are NOT America's Values!)
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To: Atlantic Bridge

Maurice Papon in 1947

Papon avoided the post-war purge of Vichy Nazi collaborators. even though it was well known Papon as head of the south-western Gironde region of France during the Nazi occupation, he signed effective death warrants for hundreds of Jews by ordering their deportation to concentration camps.

The picture below explains why Vichy Nazi Maurice Papon was not prosecuted as a collaborating war criminal.

General de Gaulle honoured Papon, seen here beside the post-war leader

After the war, Papon moved to Paris as Prefet de Police under General de Gaulle, a post he held until 1968.

At Maurice Papon's death the screams of his Jewish victims tormented him. Papon was most likely also greeted by fellow Vichy traitors, Gestapo officials and many Nazi SS killers - at the gates of Hell!

18 posted on 02/18/2007 2:30:18 AM PST by M. Espinola (Freedom is Never Free)
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To: Atlantic Bridge
I liked this part of the article.

After Switzerland sent him back to France to serve his prison sentence, he was sent to La Santé jail on October 22, 1999. Papon was also stripped of all his decorations; under French law, people convicted of severe crimes cannot be members of the Legion of Honor.

19 posted on 02/18/2007 2:47:20 AM PST by GretchenM (What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul? Please meet my friend, Jesus)
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To: Triggerhippie

lol


20 posted on 02/18/2007 2:49:24 AM PST by GretchenM (What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul? Please meet my friend, Jesus)
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To: Atlantic Bridge

Reference material that (among other principals) does discuss
French culpability in The Holocaust:

http://www.pbs.org/auschwitz/

As much as I dislike our leftist Public Broadcasting System, this
was a good documentary (with some good-to-awful panel discussions).


21 posted on 02/18/2007 3:08:36 AM PST by VOA
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To: Atlantic Bridge

Let him roast for his crimes!


22 posted on 02/18/2007 4:28:17 AM PST by Androcles (All your typos are belong to us)
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To: Atlantic Bridge
A French collaborator? No surprise there.
23 posted on 02/18/2007 6:28:26 AM PST by Ukiapah Heep (Shoes for Industry!)
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To: California Patriot
Being responsible for deportations is not necessarily the same as conscious cooperation in the deportees' deaths.

Sure, under the generous terms the Nuremberg laws Jews and Gypsies unjoyed special status as "protected persons". They were just being sent to the dritte Reich for some exercise and education. I sure he felt it was for their own good.

24 posted on 02/18/2007 10:49:30 AM PST by Lonesome in Massachussets (When I search out the massed wheeling circles of the stars, my feet no longer touch the earth)
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To: Atlantic Bridge
"Elected deputy of Cher as candidate of the UDR Gaullist Party in 1968..."

I can only hope Sonny never found out about this.

25 posted on 02/18/2007 10:55:25 AM PST by Joe 6-pack
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To: Atlantic Bridge

Thanks to Rene Carmille and the Marco Polo Resistance Network, the number of people deported and murdered would have been higher. Rene Carmille thwarted much of Maurice Papon's work. Carmille was torchered for two days before he died.



"No power in the world", he exhorted them, "can stop you from remembering that you are the heirs of those who defended the country of France, from those who stood on the bridge of Bouvines...to those who fought at the Marne. Remember that!

"No power in the world can stop you from remembering that you are the heirs of the Cartesian thought, of the mysticism and the mathematics of Pascal, of the clarity of the writers of the 16th Century, and the perennial accomplishments of the 19th Century thinkers, all this - in France. Remember that!

"No power in the world can stop you from realizing that your institution has furnished the world with [great] thinkers...that freedom of thought has always existed...with rigor and tenacity. Remember that!

"No power in the world can stop you from knowing that the motto inscribed in gold letters on the pavilian: 'For Country, For Knowledge, and For Glory,' and the weighty heritage that constitutes the immense work of your ancestors, if for you a categorical imperative which must guide your path of conduct. Remember that!

"All this is written in your soul, and no one can control your soul, because your soul only belongs to God".

- Rene Carmille
1943, Polytechnic School, Paris


26 posted on 02/18/2007 1:01:34 PM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets

I don't excuse Papon's collaboration with this evil regime, not at all. I do say the hatred on the thread is probably over-the-top. From what I've read, the jury didn't convict Papon of murder, because they agreed that he didn't know the victims would be exterminated. People assume, for example, that concentration camps were the same as extermination camps. They weren't.


27 posted on 02/18/2007 1:06:56 PM PST by California Patriot ("That's not Charlie the Tuna out there. It's Jaws." -- Richard Nixon)
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To: California Patriot
"Being responsible for deportations is not necessarily the same as conscious cooperation in the deportees' deaths. We need to drop the hysteria and get some more facts before we froth at the mouth about this."

Oh yeah, I am sure he merely thought the Germans were sending them to a summer camp, don't you think? He should have been hung.

28 posted on 02/18/2007 1:41:09 PM PST by Al Simmons (People who are on bandwagons of unknown US House Reps are detached from reality)
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To: California Patriot
"I don't excuse Papon's collaboration with this evil regime, not at all. I do say the hatred on the thread is probably over-the-top. From what I've read, the jury didn't convict Papon of murder, because they agreed that he didn't know the victims would be exterminated. People assume, for example, that concentration camps were the same as extermination camps. They weren't."

Most of the people sent there died under the Nazis anyway, so what's the difference.

DUDE, you are starting to SMELL like one of the people in my tag-line below....which if you are not ought to make you think!

Its the last sentence above that's a giveaway.

Let me clue you in: The Nazis destroyed the country of my birth, killing 1,000,000 people in the process - some of whom were my own family members, including my uncle....my Dad fought them for 3 years behind enemy lines (his name was on a Gestapo list of individuals to be rounded up and liquidated following the invasion - a single fact that makes me just as proud of him as anything that he did after the war).

EVERY SINGLE COLLABORATOR should have been SHOT after the war.

You have NO CLUE what the Nazis were. I do. Psycopathic, pathologically lying, atheist-con-men mass murderers. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

And anyone who collaborated with the, or makes excuses for them today is no better.

29 posted on 02/18/2007 1:48:44 PM PST by Al Simmons (Holocaust-deniers and other anti-semites are the lowest forms of humanity.)
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To: California Patriot
"I don't excuse Papon's collaboration with this evil regime, not at all. I do say the hatred on the thread is probably over-the-top. From what I've read, the jury didn't convict Papon of murder, because they agreed that he didn't know the victims would be exterminated. People assume, for example, that concentration camps were the same as extermination camps. They weren't."

Most of the people sent there died under the Nazis anyway, so what's the difference.

DUDE, you are starting to SMELL like one of the people in my tag-line below....which if you are not ought to make you think!

Its the last sentence above that's a giveaway.

Let me clue you in: The Nazis destroyed the country of my birth, killing 1,000,000 people in the process - some of whom were my own family members, including my uncle....my Dad fought them for 3 years behind enemy lines (his name was on a Gestapo list of individuals to be rounded up and liquidated following the invasion - a single fact that makes me just as proud of him as anything that he did after the war).

EVERY SINGLE COLLABORATOR should have been SHOT after the war.

You have NO CLUE what the Nazis were. I do. Psycopathic, pathologically lying, atheist-con-men mass murderers. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

And anyone who collaborated with them, or makes excuses for them today is no better.

30 posted on 02/18/2007 1:49:00 PM PST by Al Simmons (Holocaust-deniers and other anti-semites are the lowest forms of humanity.)
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To: Al Simmons

You're setting up a false dilemma. I simply said that the jury found that he did not know they would be killed. I don't excuse concentration camps. Of course they were a tool of evil tyranny. That doesn't alter the fact that there was a difference between concentration camps and extermination camps.


31 posted on 02/18/2007 2:02:28 PM PST by California Patriot ("That's not Charlie the Tuna out there. It's Jaws." -- Richard Nixon)
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To: Al Simmons

I know plenty about the Nazis, and of course I detest them.
Stop with your self-righteous lectures. I don't deny that Papon should have known, or may have known, that the poor people MIGHT be killed. That's not the same as a mass murderer who deserves to go to hell. Nor, for that matter, do I deny that he shouldn't have collaborated with the Nazis in any way. Of course he shouldn't have. But again, we have to distinguish the various degrees of culpability and degrees of evil. Apparently, this is what Papon's jury did. It is part of our Western heritage, and of freedom.


32 posted on 02/18/2007 2:06:30 PM PST by California Patriot ("That's not Charlie the Tuna out there. It's Jaws." -- Richard Nixon)
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To: Atlantic Bridge

Gurs camp as photographed from a water tower. Gurs, France, ca. 1941 - United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

The Gurs camp was one of the first and largest camps established in prewar France. It was located in the Basque region of southwestern France, just to the south of the village of Gurs. The camp, about 50 miles from the Spanish border, was situated in the foothills of the Pyrenees Mountains northwest of Oloron-Sainte-Marie.

The French government established the Gurs camp in April 1939, before war with Germany and well before the occupation of France in June 1940. Originally, Gurs served as a detention camp for political refugees and members of the International Brigade fleeing Spain after the Spanish Civil War.

In early 1940, the French government also interned about 4,000 German Jewish refugees as "enemy aliens," along with French resistence leaders who opposed the war with Germany. Gurs fell under the authority of the new collaborationist French government, the Vichy regime.

About 3,000 Jews died in internment camps on French soil. About 1,000 Jews were executed or murdered in France during the Occupation.

33 posted on 02/18/2007 2:23:57 PM PST by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: California Patriot
Cool. Its just a touchy subject with me. I was just having a go at a David Irving sympathizer on another thread a few days ago so my trigger finger was still itchy, I guess. :>)

He should still have died in prison. (I wonder why de Gaulle thought he'd be useful to him - that's the other side of the story to Google another day...)

34 posted on 02/18/2007 2:53:09 PM PST by Al Simmons (People who are on bandwagons of unknown US House Reps are detached from reality)
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To: Al Simmons

Cool. It's a touchy subject with you -- and should be.
David Irving definitely seems like a negative force.
I am in no way a fan of those who would "re-evaluate" Hitler or Nazism, or would deny or minimize the Holocaust.
But I know there are such people, and I'm sure there are some on FReep. Go get 'em.

About DeGaulle's use of Papon, I have a sense that the French (in the old days, at least), despite their ambivalence about the U.S., DeGaulle's leaving NATO, etc., were very tough guys in their own way. As I imagine you know, the (very Stalinist, Soviet-controlled) Communist Party was very strong in France. I'm not sure I blame DeGaulle for using very tough tactics and very tough people (as I would guess Papon was) against the communists and their ilk. And, even very bright people like DeGaulle can simply be wrong, or ignorant, about certain key facts. It seems unlikely in the case of Papon, but one never knows. It's fair to say that DeGaulle should have been more sensitive to the ethical issue here.


35 posted on 02/18/2007 3:04:04 PM PST by California Patriot ("That's not Charlie the Tuna out there. It's Jaws." -- Richard Nixon)
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To: Atlantic Bridge

Yes, there is more to say, France has never fully emerged from that sad period in their history. The French government is as untrustworthy an ally as they were then. Nothing has changed, they are still self-interested, arrogant, cowards who would sell out their own mothers if it would gain them some status.


36 posted on 02/18/2007 3:12:38 PM PST by Eva
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To: Joe 6-pack
"Elected deputy of Cher as candidate of the UDR Gaullist Party in 1968..." I can only hope Sonny never found out about this.

Help! I need oxygen!

37 posted on 02/18/2007 7:28:18 PM PST by Atlantic Bridge (De omnibus dubitandum!)
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To: Eva
Yes, there is more to say, France has never fully emerged from that sad period in their history. The French government is as untrustworthy an ally as they were then. Nothing has changed, they are still self-interested, arrogant, cowards who would sell out their own mothers if it would gain them some status.

Well I am from Germany and I live near the French boarder having many friends and even some relatives (an uncle of mine married into a family in Paris) over there. Let me say that much - not all Frenchmen are like Chirac and French soldiers are for sure no cowards.

We Germans won in WWII against them because we had the better strategy and better weapons. It had nothing to do with the common French soldiers. Personally I had a perfect experience with the French comrades I worked together during my service in the German Airforce. Not the kind of guys that backstab you.

38 posted on 02/18/2007 7:38:22 PM PST by Atlantic Bridge (De omnibus dubitandum!)
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To: Al Simmons; California Patriot
You have NO CLUE what the Nazis were. I do. Psycopathic, pathologically lying, atheist-con-men mass murderers. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

Yup. This is indeed true. I had the "privilege" to know a few of them. The most dangerous people you can think of since they were absolutely convinced of themselves and of their homicidal acting. In the meantime they are -thank God- all death.

39 posted on 02/18/2007 7:45:19 PM PST by Atlantic Bridge (De omnibus dubitandum!)
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To: Atlantic Bridge

I'm sure that not all French men are as greedy and self interested as Chirac and Villapain, oh whatever his name is, but the fact is that they have been elected over and over because the average French man thinks only of his daily life and government benefits. They French are willing to abandon everything, even their culture to gain oil and government benefits. The anti-American feelings in Europe are aimed at gaining favor from the world despots and more oil contracts. Austria and Germany are no different. Europe will sell out their own culture for oil, it is already happening. This time the US will not come to the rescue.


40 posted on 02/18/2007 9:03:16 PM PST by Eva
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To: Atlantic Bridge

I forgot to add that my uncle was a French Jew. His family escaped and was very successful in the US, but they never forgot the traitorous actions of some in their home country.


41 posted on 02/18/2007 9:05:34 PM PST by Eva
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To: Atlantic Bridge
Superficial Resemblance Sarcasm TorpedoTM ARMED. FIRE!!

Cheers!

42 posted on 02/18/2007 9:17:06 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Eva
I forgot to add that my uncle was a French Jew. His family escaped and was very successful in the US, but they never forgot the traitorous actions of some in their home country.

My aunt married a very sucessfull Jew from New York after the war while my grandfather was a very sucessfull pilot of the Luftwaffe (Wehrmacht) in WWII. Today I have a jewish part of my family in the US and Israel, an French part in Paris (one of my uncles went to Paris and married a beautiful French wife) and last but not least my own family here in Germany. You see - fate can be a strange bird and I am sitting between all chairs.

My personal experience concerning my family is that all members of "my tribe" do not differ very much from each other. We might have different professions but we are all very good in the things we are doing and we have a strong interest of each other. No matter if we live in New York or in Paris.

The family of my uncle in New York originally came from the Minsk area. All remaining 44 members disappeared during the war and the holocaust. His parents were able to escape in the right time.

My granddad was a member of the German airforce since 1934 and served as a flight instructor until 1944. He was originally too important to be "burned" at the front. That changed when the tactical situation of Germany turned into hopelessness. Between 1944 and 1945 my granddad shot down quite a few US-bombers (and also machines from the UK) over Germany with his Focke-Wulf and left a real mountain of American corpses. After the war, when he found out that he fought for the wrong side he was filled with bitter sorrow over the mess he had arranged (although he did it in purely defensive missions). The life of a fallen young man will never come back and all who have a heart beating in their chest will feel the mourning and the tears of the poor mothers.

As I said - I am sitting between all chairs, but there is nothing that I hate more than real nazis.

43 posted on 02/19/2007 2:54:03 AM PST by Atlantic Bridge (De omnibus dubitandum!)
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To: Eva
They French are willing to abandon everything, even their culture to gain oil and government benefits. The anti-American feelings in Europe are aimed at gaining favor from the world despots and more oil contracts. Austria and Germany are no different. Europe will sell out their own culture for oil, it is already happening.

Do you know that most people here in Europe say exactly the same about you? Fact is that Germany and France recieve most of their oil from Russia and not from Iraq, Iran or somewhere else in the ME. Furthermore we have no obligation to support you in offensive wars. NATO is restricted to defensive operations. Therefore is the war in Iraq your very own party and for sure none of our business. Most Europeans are convinced that the conquering of oilfields for Halliburton was the reason for this war. Nobody and I mean really nobody ever believed into Saddam's WMDs in Europe. Maybe you can understand now that most Europeans saw absolutely no reason to support America in this operation if you rethink the European impression of your motives.

I have to admit that some of our politicians would have better kept their mouths shut. Chirac and Schroeder were a pain in the a**. It is for sure not in the interest of us Europeans that America is going to loose this war like Vietnam. Therefore European conservatives like me support more troop deployments in Afghanistan to give your troops the possibility that you can concentrate your power in Iraq. Furthermore personally I do not share the view of most of my compatriots (although I understand then) and I think that the elimination of Saddam Hussein was worth a war with many lost lives. Nevertheless I do not believe into significant amounts of Iraqi WMDs either.

The thing is that we are much more independent from America than we were until 1990. Today Germany is free to make decisions in its own interest. That was not always the case.

44 posted on 02/19/2007 3:28:10 AM PST by Atlantic Bridge (De omnibus dubitandum!)
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To: Atlantic Bridge
There was a map in the Wall Street Journal that depicted all the areas of the world where Total SA had oil contracts. Every where there is an anti-American despot with oil, France has oil contracts. France was was heavily involved with Iraq and lost a huge contract due to the war in Iraq (then when the initial invasion was over and Saddam was captured, France wanted in to "help" with the rebuilding).
The new head of Total is supposed to be under investigation for involvement in the oil for food scam, but of course there will be no prosecution because Chirac and Villapaine (SP?) were involved as well. Now, Total is about to begin the joint development of a huge off shore natural gas field with Iran. It is not the US that is desperate for oil. It is Europe. Getting your oil from Russia is never a good thing, because it puts you at the mercy of the Russians, and we all know that Russians do not have a good track record for keeping their aggreements.

The Europeans are fond of saying that Americans are uncultured, but the Europeans have frittered away their own culture, and now the most popular baby name in Europe is Mohammed, all for oil( and money in the pockets of your corrupt leaders). Lazy Europeans rushed head long, back into the socialist nanny state after the reconstruction that followed WWII (a reconstruction that was largely done by the US, though Europe is eternally ungrateful and disloyal). It is the same the socialist condition that allowed for the rise of Hitler, because of the loss of freedom of speech, and desire to allow the government, and greedy politicians to take responsibility for your lives.

If Europe hates Hitler, it is only because he was a loser. The antisemitism in Europe is rising to the levels of the early thirties, mainly driven by the influence of the Muslim population in Europe, and again by the dependence on Mideast oil. Europe has lost its moral compass, if it ever had one, and is spinning in a tide of political perfidy.
45 posted on 02/19/2007 8:47:28 AM PST by Eva
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To: Eva
Every where there is an anti-American despot with oil, France has oil contracts.

Correct. And every where there is an pro-American despot with oil, the US has oil contracts. Do not tell me that it is more morale to make business with Saudi Arabia compared to Iraq under Saddam Hussein. Dealing with oil is a business without too much values no matter if it is done by Americans or Europeans.

The Europeans are fond of saying that Americans are uncultured, but the Europeans have frittered away their own culture, and now the most popular baby name in Europe is Mohammed, all for oil( and money in the pockets of your corrupt leaders). Lazy Europeans rushed head long, back into the socialist nanny state after the reconstruction that followed WWII (a reconstruction that was largely done by the US, though Europe is eternally ungrateful and disloyal). It is the same the socialist condition that allowed for the rise of Hitler, because of the loss of freedom of speech, and desire to allow the government, and greedy politicians to take responsibility for your lives.

Well if this is your conviction you should not waste your time in whining around about those lazy socialist Europeans. Simply pack your bags and go. Save the world on your own and do not bother us with your problems.

It is indeed true that America helped us after WWII. Germany recieved 1.5 billion US$ after the war. The sum of money was not that important but the psychological thrill gave a decisive push to the German economy. Since the US already were engaged in the cold war they needed a stable platform in central Europe. Just to get the dimensions: Germany payed 65 billion Euros reparations. Therefore it can not be said, that the recontruction of Europe was largely done by the US. This is ridicolous. It is indeed true that the US helped and we are really as thankful as we can be, but the real work was done by ourselves.

If Europe hates Hitler, it is only because he was a loser. The antisemitism in Europe is rising to the levels of the early thirties, mainly driven by the influence of the Muslim population in Europe, and again by the dependence on Mideast oil. Europe has lost its moral compass, if it ever had one, and is spinning in a tide of political perfidy.

Nope. The current level of antisemitism in Europe is quite low. It has its origin in the problems between the Arabs and Israel and can not be compared to the early thirties of the last century. Countries like Germany are delivering Israel with free weapons i.e. and are helping where they can. Olmert asked us to control the coast of Lebanon i.e. and we did although we have practically no interests there and therefore it would be a waste of money and time if it is not in the interest of the Israelis. BTW - Antisemitism in Europe can not be that eminent since more Jews immigrated to Germany than to Israel in the recent years until they changed the German immigration laws because Israel was quite pi**ed about that situation.

You know absolutely nothing about Europe. A ridicolous orgy of hate. I feel sorry for your uncle who had to suffer under Hitler and some traitorous French. Nevertheless the situation 60 years ago has only very little in common with the current.

46 posted on 02/19/2007 9:40:03 AM PST by Atlantic Bridge (De omnibus dubitandum!)
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To: Atlantic Bridge
Ouch

And our media too.

47 posted on 02/19/2007 9:47:13 AM PST by Tribune7 (A bleeding heart does nothing but ruin the carpet.)
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To: Atlantic Bridge
Do not tell me that it is more morale to make business with Saudi Arabia compared to Iraq under Saddam Hussein.

Who have the Saudis gassed/invaded/fire missiles at?

48 posted on 02/19/2007 9:48:45 AM PST by Tribune7 (A bleeding heart does nothing but ruin the carpet.)
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To: Atlantic Bridge
Americans don't hate Europeans the way the Europeans hate Americans, we just don't trust them. Europe is using anti-American sentiment to build up their own self esteem and gain political currency among the world community of socialist despots. America rescued Europe from its own treachery, not once but twice and this is the thanks that we get.

Don't feel sorry for me or Americans, feel sorry for Europe, because it won't be around for many more years, not as you now know it. Europe will be Eurabia, and I hope you enjoy Sharia law. You claim that the anti-semiticism is largely a result of the Israeli-Palistinian conflict, but that is only a symptom, not a cause. A Palestinian Mullah helped Hitler design his anti-Jewish pogrom.

My son toured Europe in the summer of 2005, and everywhere he went in Europe there were problems with the Islamists. He was in the subway station in London on July 7th when the Islamists blew up the train. When he was in Paris, Muslim men ran through the train yelling in Arabic and terrorizing the other passengers, until women were crying and screaming. Every country that he visited showed signs of the rising problem that Europe faces from the Islamic immigration. Europe is afraid to deal with it, so they blame the US.
49 posted on 02/19/2007 10:16:47 AM PST by Eva
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To: Eva
Americans don't hate Europeans the way the Europeans hate Americans, we just don't trust them.

That is fine. Nevertheless what is your definition of anti-Americanism? Well, it is indeed true that most western Europeans have other political gains than the current US-administration. It is indeed true that we have another way of living. Of course we are different from you and it is also true that we do not want to absorb everything from you. It is even true that some American values are quite irrelevant on the old continent. The people here have more socialist ideology, they are not that religious and last but not least they have another definition of freedom. While it is no problem to obtain weapons in the US or drive a car with 16 you will have no problem in Europe when you are going topless over a beach or when you drink alcohol and smoke with 16. Other countries other attitudes.

This is all true. Nevertheless why do you think are we sending our kids into exchange programs with you? Why are we helping you out with soldiers in such godforsaken places like Afghanistan? Why will you never see any American flags being burned on our streets? Why will everbody help you in Europe when you are in need of help? Why are the people friendly to you if they find out where you come from? Why is everyone trying to speak with you although all of them have a funny accent? Why do elderly European women invite you for tea and coffee?

Because we hate you?

Europe will be Eurabia, and I hope you enjoy Sharia law.

Yawn. Well I am also keen on 72 virgins in heaven (to a male like me it might be more interesting than playing a harp on a cloud as an angel) but seriously - Germany has 3.7% muslims in its population. The French have more, the Brits have less. Our muslims in Germany are mainly Turks. Most if them are nice and decent people who work hard and are far from terrorism. We have some problems with young muslim males in big towns. That much is true. The crux is, that they are the underdogs in our society. Usually they lack education and they get no jobs. Therefore they lost their self-esteem and they fall back into being a "muslim" or a "Turk". This is the reason why they spoil some areas in our big towns with violence and riots. Islam is simply a identification base for them just as it is the color of the skin for such underdogs in your country. All this is not that different to the US. Maybe you remember the L.A. "Rodney King" riots from 1992. I think roundabout 60 people died because of your problems with your black minority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_Riots http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France

The difference to the recent riots in France was that the incident in the US was much more violent. Welcome to our common realitiy. Europe is as far away from Sharia law as you are away from a becoming a black apartheid state.

My son toured Europe in the summer of 2005, and everywhere he went in Europe there were problems with the Islamists. He was in the subway station in London on July 7th when the Islamists blew up the train. When he was in Paris, Muslim men ran through the train yelling in Arabic and terrorizing the other passengers, until women were crying and screaming. Every country that he visited showed signs of the rising problem that Europe faces from the Islamic immigration.

I am sorry to hear that he was involved into the terror bombing in London. But this was such a extreme situation that I as a European have never been in something comparable, although I have much experience in travelling around on my continent. Just one thing - I have been in your country many times in my life and I could say the same about your black underdogs (just to make it clear - I have nothing against blacks and I am no racist). Just try to spend a night as a European in Harlem/New York in a typical tourist outfit. Have fun!

Europe is afraid to deal with it, so they blame the US.

I never ever heared that European people, media or politicians constructed a coherence between the US and our problems with muslim immigration. It would be moronic. Give me some sources please.

50 posted on 02/19/2007 4:40:43 PM PST by Atlantic Bridge (De omnibus dubitandum!)
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