Israel may open 'Jesus tomb' to public

Jerusalem Post ^ | February 27, 2007 | ETGAR LEFKOVITS AND DAVID HOROVITZ

[NYer]

Israeli authorities say they are prepared to consider opening to the public a 2,000-year-old burial tomb in Jerusalem's East Talpiot neighborhood which is said by the makers of a new documentary to have likely been the final resting place of Jesus of Nazareth, his mother, partner Mary Magdalene, son, and other members of his family.

The Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA), responsible for the tomb - which was first uncovered during construction of the neighborhood in 1980 - said it would be up to the Jerusalem Municipality to make such a decision. And municipality spokesman Gidi Schmerling told The Jerusalem Post on Monday night that if a request were made to open the site, it would be considered.

• Raiders of the Lost Tomb
  
• Analysis: Christian heresy of the Talpiot tomb?
  
• Kloner: A great story, but nonsense
  
• Talpiot residents: Jesus's new neighbors?
  
• 'Jesus, Magdalene, and son in Talpiot tomb'

  The producers of The Lost Tomb of Jesus, which was formally launched at a press conference in New York on Monday and is being screened in the US, Israel and elsewhere next week, claim that six of the 10 ossuaries found in the tomb and held by the IAA bear inscriptions that link them to "Jesus son of Joseph," "Mary," "Jose" (a brother of Jesus), "Matia" (another relative), "Mariamne" (said to be Mary Magdalene) and a child named "Judah son of Jesus." The IAA loaned out the "Jesus" and "Mariamne" ossuaries to the filmmakers for their press conference.

  The filmmakers also claim that forensic tests tie the so-called "James" (brother of Jesus) ossuary, which was "discovered" in 2002 in the collection of Israeli collector Oded Golan, to the same tomb. The "James" inscription has been widely branded a forgery.

  The film, made by Israeli-born, Canadian-based Simcha Jacobovici, presents what it says is overwhelming statistical evidence - based on the cluster of resonant names and supporting scientific research - that the cave was the burial tomb of Jesus and his family.

  But the Israeli archeologist responsible for the 1980 excavation, Prof. Amos Kloner, on Monday night intensified his criticism of this assertion, lambasting the documentary as "absolute nonsense."

  At their press conference, Jacobovici said he now "dreamed" of the opportunity for the tomb to be more properly excavated. He and a colleague were able to enter the tomb, which lies sealed beneath a rectangular slab between rows of buildings in East Talpiot, only briefly during the filming of the documentary, with the permission of neighbors. They were asked to leave and reseal it by an IAA official who was called to the site.

  "We rediscovered the tomb," Jacobovici noted, adding that many had believed erroneously it was destroyed during the 1980s' construction. "The tomb is there! There may be inscriptions in the tomb," he said, along with all kinds of other evidence including bones that might bolster, or shatter, the documentary's claims. "This is the beginning."

  The filmmakers also expressed the hope that they would be given further access to the various ossuaries, which might enable additional forensic and possibly DNA and other testing. The filmmakers said they were able to retrieve sufficient material from the "Jesus" and "Mariamne" ossuaries to establish that they were not the bone-boxes of blood relatives; hence their theory that Jesus and "Mariamne" were a couple, and possibly the parents of the child "Judah."

  IAA officials would not comment on whether further such access to the ossuaries would be allowed. The IAA said it had lent out the two ossuaries displayed in New York in the name of "artistic freedom," without endorsing the filmmakers' findings in any way.

  James Cameron, the Oscar-winning Hollywood executive producer of the documentary, said at the press conference that the style of burial as seen in the ossuaries from the tomb was only followed for about a century, at the time of Jesus, for about 80,000 individuals.

  The filmmaker's statistician, Andrey Feuerverger of the University of Toronto, said that "Based on the assumptions that I had [given to me]... we're seeing numbers that... make you think... this is it." Feuerverger offered overwhelming statistics - in the range of 100-1 to 1000-1 against the thesis being wrong, though in the movie the statistics cited are even more overwhelmingly conclusive.

  In answer to a question, Jacobovici acknowledged that if the inscription on the "Jesus" ossuary is actually illegible, as some critics have claimed, the whole thesis collapses. "If this doesn't say Jesus, yes, it all falls apart," he said of the inscribed ossuary. But every expert to whom the inscription had been shown, he said, had conclusively confirmed it as reading "Jesus son of Joseph." The original Israeli catalogue of the ossuaries from the tomb recorded it as reading "Jesus," too, he said.

  Dr. James Tabor, chairman of religious studies at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, said the ossuary from the Talpiot tomb was the only one ever found with a confirmed provenance bearing the inscription "Jesus son of Joseph."

  The filmmakers' presentation was met by a largely receptive journalistic audience. Indeed, the biggest doubter was on the filmmakers' own panel.

  Shimon Gibson, who was one of the original team that worked at the tomb when it was first discovered in 1980, said he was "skeptical" of the Jesus family claims. "I'm willing to accept the possibility," he allowed. "I'm not going to deny there's an interesting set of variables."

  Gibson said the original team "viewed [the tomb] as a normal family tomb of a Jewish family from the 1st century... All the names were well known. None of them seemed to us to be unusual." The authorities lacked the capability to do the kind of analysis that would be possible now, he said, and he hoped that such further research would be permissible.

  Back in Jerusalem, by contrast, Israeli archeologists were firmly dismissive, reiterating that the similarity of the names found inscribed on the ossuaries to those in the Jesus narrative was coincidental since many of those names were commonplace in the first century CE.

  "Yeshua was such a popular name during the Second Temple Period," said Israeli archeologist Danny Bahat, who is currently with the University of Toronto. "The fact that you have such similar names is due to the fact that these were the prevalent names during that time," he said.

  Bahat added that, like The Da Vinci Code, the new documentary was pure fiction that took "two correct facts" and mixed them with "gibberish," such as the assertion that the "James" ossuary originated in the same cave.

  Kloner, who had previously dismissed the documentary's claims as "impossible" and "nonsense," said Monday that having now viewed the film he had previously taken it "too seriously," and stood by every word of his stinging criticism.

  Kloner noted that when the ossuaries were found nearly three decades ago, most of the bones inside were badly decomposed.

  Due to haredi pressures put on the Israeli government, no anthropological tests were ever carried out on the remains, he said, with the bones transferred to the Religious Affairs Ministry for immediate reburial along with assorted other remains found in various construction projects and digs.

  The location of the bones, which were then interred by the Jewish burial society, is not known.

  At the press conference, Gibson had recalled a similar process, though he said an anthropologist had normally examined bones in the numerous ossuaries that were being recovered at the time from various caves at construction sites in the then-expanding Jerusalem.

  The IAA looks after 30,000 known archeological sites in Israel, including thousands of burial caves; most such sites are sealed, and closed off to the public.

  The slab that seals the Talpiot tomb is located at the bottom of a stairway between buildings, and any future opening of the site to the public would likely require the relocation of some residents.

  The alleged burial site, which has been contested by scholars and church officials alike, is several kilometers from the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in the Old City where many Christians believe Jesus's body lay for three days.

  According to the New Testament, Jesus rose from the dead on the third day after his crucifixion, and the fact that Jesus had an ossuary would contradict the core Christian belief that he was resurrected and ascended to heaven. Still, members of the film team suggested on Monday that some Christian traditions could be reconciled to the notion of a "spiritual" resurrection.

  The New York press conference ended on a semi-humorous note, when the panel was asked if there was enough DNA remaining in the ossuary to clone Jesus. "Some experiments shouldn't be done," one of the film team responded.

  Then Tabor said conclusively that there was "no intact cellular DNA" and so no possibility of cloning.

  ---

  Simcha Jacobovici

[NYer]

Tomb

Ossuary

[NYer]

I believe the comment made by a VA visitor on a recent news article on this topic, sums it up perfectly.

"More anti-Catholic bigotry by Cameron. In Titanic, he defames the Catholic Priest who actually liberated the third class passengers from down below decks, and then stayed with them to comfort them in their suffering (and died with them despite several offers to escape in a lifeboat). And now Cameron defames the founder of the Church, his mother and the first witness of the resurrection. What nonsense.">
John Donovan, Alexandria, VA

---

Catholic Ping
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list

Eastern Catholic Ping List
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list

[Rummyfan]

Why don't they go find the Mohammed tomb?

[A.Hun]

I agree, this looks like another blatant attempt to discredit the very foundation of Christianity...ala The DaVinci Code.

[VictoryGal]

Color me very skeptical, but even if true this discovery says nothing different about Jesus' divinity or his mission on earth.

[Tarpon]

Why don't they go find the Mohammed tomb?

That was a joke, right?

[Red Badger]

....overwhelming statistical evidence...

BS.........no such thing..........

[Clint N. Suhks]

More Christian bashing...

It will never end until Rapture.

[Red Badger]

Old Mo'ham rode into heaven on a horse...........

[Red Badger]

End at the Rapture? No, that's just the beginning........

[jla]

"...partner Mary Magdalene..."

Huh?

[NYer]

Why don't they go find the Mohammed tomb?

Because Cameron and crew are cowards. Easier to confuse the meek Christians, than to deal with angry Muslims.

[Rummyfan]

Exactly!

[VictoryGal]

By skeptical I mean skeptical of the claim that this tomb is actually Jesus'.

[B.O. Plenty]

It's not going to work.....God is still in control.

This gives us more opportunities for study and discussion. It's what sets Christians apart from the rest of the world. You absolutely will not find small group of muslims sitting around a table during some kind of muslim "sunday school" discussing the meaning of a koran verse.

[Clint N. Suhks]

I think the Christian bashing just might stop when the faithful disappear.

Whuda you think?

[Knitting A Conundrum]

It was a common combination of names. I understand they have found several Jesus son of Joseph ossuaries...they were just really prevalant names.

[mware]

partner Mary Magdalene

WTH, and I do mean hell.

[Alouette]

Why don't they go find the Mohammed tomb?

Mohammed has no tomb--he was dragged down alive into the pit of hellfire.

[Red Badger]

That's when the Tribulation starts..........

[Blogger]

God is in control, but it well may work with many as their excuse. There will come a time where they will be sent strong delusion that they might believe the lie. Maybe this is the lie. It certainly is getting strong coverage.

[mkjessup]

Why don't they go find the Mohammed tomb?

Where would they begin? At last count, I heard there were literally hundreds of thousands of pedophile/kiddie-porn websites...

[VictoryGal]

> It's not going to work.....God is still in control.

> This gives us more opportunities for study and discussion. It's what sets Christians apart from the rest of the world. You absolutely will not find small group of muslims sitting around a table during some kind of muslim "sunday school" discussing the meaning of a koran verse.

Well said and the perfect attitude. We can make lemonade by using this to talk about Jesus and his plan for our lives.

[Blogger]

Yes it does. If he has bones in an ossuary then he died on the cross and did not rise from the dead. As Paul said if there is no resurrection then we are without hope.

[Rutles4Ever]

There's no friggin' way:

a) that Jesus had a family outside of His Mother and father, and

b) that an actual "body" of the deceased Christ would have been allowed by the Pharisees and Saduceees (especially the Saducees) to lay undisturbed after the Apostles proclaimed His resurrection as proof of His divinity. His corpse would have been paraded back and forth through the streets of Jerusalem if it was actually there. And

c) additionally, the Apostles - who were loyal and steadfast Jews who continued to worship at synagogue even after the Resurrection - would have quickly and certainly recanted their belief in Jesus if it turned out He was a sham. Let's not forget, Peter had no problem whatsoever denying his belief in Christ when the chips were down. If Christ did NOT return from the dead, then there's absolutely no logic in Peter leading the new church, since his last act prior to the resurrection was to utterly abandon it. There would not have been an appointment by Christ for Peter to "feed my lambs".

The game is on, people. First, Satan attacks the Church with lies. Then, when that fails, he will attack Her offspring. Get to the desert, where the Lord has a place for our protection. The Church will not fall.

[VictoryGal]

They could have remembered him with the ossuary (without a body), or he may have ascended spiritually.

[Suzy Quzy]

I totally respect your thinking....what do you think about Simcha, a Jew, doing this?

[BaBaStooey]

The center of the Islamic holy site in Mecca has a black stone which is said to have fallen from Eden along with Adam and Eve, which was white when it first fell to Earth, and is now black since it has been touched by so many who have sinned.

For some reason, I just don't see Cameron taking a team of archaeologists to Mecca.

[Suzy Quzy]

"IF"?????There is no IF....There are NO BONES!! Satan sows seeds of doubt...don't let them take hold. This is a FARCE and the people involved have a lot to answer for at their death. Wouldn't want to BE them.

[NavyCanDo]

Plato mentions Atlantis once and 1600 years later serious scientist are still searching for it, not doubting for a moment that it once existed. Over 500 people were said to have witnesses Jesus after his resurrection many going to their death because of their testimony and people outside the Christian faith doubt his existence or they believe he was a real person, but a mortal.

As Christians we need to expect these attacks on our faith to continue and it will intensify as we approach the return of Jesus just as the Bible says it will.

[Alouette]

I first heard about this discovery years ago. There was an article about it in National Geographic or something.

My opinion is that this burial site has nothing to do with Jesus and belongs to a completely different family. I also believe that some of the details are exaggerated, embellished or fabricated, in order to generate publicity.

The family of Jesus did not own a burial plot in Jerusalem. The body of Jesus was placed in the tomb of another family, belonging to Joseph of Arithimea.

[Suzy Quzy]

Thanks.

[NYer]

Plato mentions Atlantis once and 1600 years later serious scientist are still searching for it, not doubting for a moment that it once existed.

Yes. Note too that many find it easier to believe in aliens than in God, despite the fact that He walked among us, spoke to us and sent His only Son to give up His life for our salvation.

[VRWCmember]

According to the New Testament, Jesus rose from the dead on the third day after his crucifixion, and the fact that Jesus had an ossuary would contradict the core Christian belief that he was resurrected and ascended to heaven. Still, members of the film team suggested on Monday that some Christian traditions could be reconciled to the notion of a "spiritual" resurrection.

Thanks but we don't need the film team to reconcile any of our Christian traditions with a notion of a "spiritual" resurrection. The filmmakers have a little reconciliation problem of their own: If this ossuary really were to contain the bones (or at the time the body) of Jesus, then the Jewish leaders and the Romans would certainly have been able to produce the dead, decaying, and identifiable body of Jesus to refute the claims of the disciples that Jesus had risen. With the resurrection refuted, Christianity would never have become a major faith. Reconcile that Cameron.

[Polybius]

Color me very skeptical, but even if true this discovery says nothing different about Jesus' divinity or his mission on earth.

And it says absolutely nothing about which "Jesus".

Jesus (a variant of "Joshua") was a very common name form in that era as evidenced by the index of "The Work of Josephus" which lists:

1. "Jesus, son of Phabet, deprived of the priesthood"

2. "Jesus, son of Ananus, his ominus clamor and death"

3. "Jesus, or Jason"

4. "Jesus, son of Sapphias, governor of Tiberias"

5. "Jesus, brother of Onius, deprived of the high priesthood"

6. "Jesus, the eldest priest after Ananus"

7. "Jesus, or Joshua, the son of Nun"

8. "Jesus, son of Saphat, ringleader of robbers"

After Jesus Christ, the name "Jesus" would have been expected to become even more popular.

Just ask any American Anglo how many of his friends or relatives are named "Josh" and just ask any Mexican how many of their friends or relatives are named "Jesus" or "Joseph" or "Mary" or all three put together.

[jasoncann]

There are two problems I see.

#1. Jesus's family was very poor and could not afford such an elaborate tomb for him and his family.
#2. If Jesus and his family were from Nazareth why were they buried in Jerusalem.

[CTK YKC]

"They could have remembered him with the ossuary (without a body), or he may have ascended spiritually."

No, he could not have ascended "spiritually". That is a scriptural fact based on Mark 16:19 and Luke 24:51. Jesus ascended into heaven forty days after his ressurection.

[hellinahandcart]

partnerMary Magdalene

Time to go riot, burn, and pillage in front of the Jerusalem Post. =:@

[A.Hun]

It's not going to work.....God is still in control.

Well said, and I agree that discussion about Christianity is a positive.

[Fitzcarraldo]

Kloner noted that when the ossuaries were found nearly three decades ago, most of the bones inside were badly decomposed.

Thus, any chance of examining them for evidence of injuries (i.e. crucifiction) is now lost.

[hellinahandcart]

Still, members of the film team suggested on Monday that some Christian traditions could be reconciled to the notion of a "spiritual" resurrection.

They are correct. There are plenty of formerly-Christian traditions that do not believe in the resurrection, the divinity of Jesus, or even the divinity of God. Far from having any trouble reconciling to the notion of a "spiritual" resurrection, they're already past it.

[hellinahandcart]

Still, members of the film team suggested on Monday that some Christian traditions could be reconciled to the notion of a "spiritual" resurrection.

They are correct. There are plenty of formerly-Christian traditions that do not believe in the resurrection, the divinity of Jesus, or even the divinity of God. Far from having any trouble reconciling to the notion of a "spiritual" resurrection, they're already past it.

[smith288]

God is in control, but it well may work with many as their excuse. There will come a time where they will be sent strong delusion that they might believe the lie. Maybe this is the lie. It certainly is getting strong coverage.

It got coverage here locally in Columbus but then the station interviewed a Baptist preacher and he said "It's as simple as this, Jews didn't write in Latin and Mary and Jesus were extremely common names...." Nice balance.

[NavyCanDo]

"Jesus (a variant of "Joshua") was a very common name form in that era"

And I heard a Scholar on the radio last night say that Mary or a variant of Mary was the most popular girls name in those days. One in five young Women had the name Mary or variant. He went on saying that finding a tomb with bone boxes carrying those two names would be like finding the names David and Debbie in a role tomb stones. The evidence just does not add up to support Camerons claim. In fact the Archaeologist that found the tomb do not stand by the film makers claims. They and other history experts quoted in the film are taken out of context.

[Fitzcarraldo]

#1. Jesus's family was very poor and could not afford such an elaborate tomb for him and his family.

#2. If Jesus and his family were from Nazareth why were they buried in Jerusalem.

Jesus' followers were hunted down by the Jews in the days and years following the Crucifiction. They died for their belief in His resurrection. Even Saul of Tarsus (later Paul) was intent on stamping out Christianity until his experience on the road to Damascus.

Is there any evidence that makes this tomb unique, besides the names?

[The_Reader_David]

Actually, the notion that Christ's family was very poor is dubious.

The 'enrollment' when Quirinius was governor, was a real-estate enrollment (that from Roman records--there was no census in the modern sense at that time, but there was a land survey), so 'going up to Bethelem because he was of the house and lineage of David' indicated the family owned land in Bethlehem and environs, quite possibly the house where the Persian magi presented their gifts to Him. An artisan (by tradition a carpenter--though ta techna is more general) with a home in Galilee and land in Bethlehem would not be 'very poor'. Details of His family history preserved in Orthodox tradition make the notion that His family was poor even less likely.

Christ's poverty was voluntary, by act of his human will, not just by the act of his divine will in selecting the woman from whom He was to be Incarnate.

Of course, ancestral land-holdings in Bethlehem would make a family ossuary in Jerusalem even less likely in the contrafactual circumstance that He had not risen from the dead.

[TravisBickle]

Blessed are you when people hate you and when they exclude you and revile you and spurn your name as evil, on account of the Son of Man! Rejoice in that day, and leap for joy, for behold, your reward is great in heaven; for so their fathers did to the prophets.

[Blogger]

Understood.

[Blogger]

You are articulating the view of Jehovah's Witnesses. Such a view is contradicted by Scripture:
Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have" (Lk. 24:39)

Further, the stakes are high.
1 Corinthians 15
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

30And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?

31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

33Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord

[Frank Sheed]

The BIG problem that Simcha Jacobovici and Cameron both have is that one of the names inscribed on the tomb is "Waldo." They can't let that be seen on TV or it would diminish the effect of their "find."