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[Idaho gun shop] Red's loses its gun license
magicvalley.com/Times-News (Idaho) ^ | 3/14/07 | Cassidy Friedman

Posted on 03/16/2007 9:50:21 AM PDT by kiriath_jearim

TWIN FALLS - Red's Trading Post, one of Idaho's oldest gun shops, can trade no longer.

The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has revoked the business's license to buy, trade or obtain guns after an ATF audit found Red's employees sold guns improperly numerous times between 1999 and 2004.

Red's manager, Ryan Horsley, admits when the business sold guns it sometimes left blank required parts of a gun purchase form, omitted a background check on a special order, failed to log multiple handgun sales to the same customer in five working days, did not keep track of guns returned to manufacturers, threw away denied applications dealers are required to keep for 20 years and failed to post a gun safety sign and pamphlets.

The ATF revoked Red's license March 5, shutting down 90 percent of the income that has sustained the store through three generations of Horsleys.

"They are taking very minor things and blowing them out of proportion," said Terry Horsley, the shop's owner and Ryan's mother.

The shop, at 215 Shoshone St. South, can sell the 1,000 guns remaining in its inventory, and can continue selling gun accessories and ammunition.

But accessories account for only 10 percent of its revenue.

"I'm just sitting here going, 'What am I going to do?,'" Ryan Horsley said.

The five-year audit found violations over a period in which 10,000 guns were sold, Horsley said.

"Mistakes happen. Stuff happens," Horsley said. "I think it's unreal expecting to have 100 percent non errors."

The bad news, which comes on the heels of record profits, could now close the store, Terry Horsley said.

Red's has paid $20,000 in legal fees protesting the ATF's decision. On Feb. 23, Red's legal team filed a petition in federal court in Boise.

The judicial review will consider, among other things, whether Red's "willfully" violated the law.

"'Not willful' is one of their petitions," said Deborah Ferguson, assistant U.S. attorney, representing the ATF's industry operations. "'Willful has been defined by case law. I would expect the court to look at that legal authority."

Case law defines "willful," an essential component of the allegations, as "they knew of the regulations and did not abide by them," Ferguson said.

Ryan Horsley said Red's was found responsible of several violations in an earlier audit.

But he said the infractions are petty and do not justify a revoked license.

"There's no missing guns," he said. "There are errors but everyone has errors."

Walt Sinclair, a Boise co-counsel for Red's, said the errors were clerical, not intentional.

He said it's not the first time the ATF has revoked the license of a Twin Falls gun dealership.

"Blue Lakes Sporting Goods lost its license," Sinclair said. "They had been there forever. It was a family business. It was a real success story, but this type of petty, technical noncompliance caused them to end up going out of business."

The ATF has 60 days from Feb. 23 to respond Red's petition.

The ATF Seattle Field Office spokeswoman declined to comment on Red's case until after judicial review.

"If the individuals reapply, the facts from the revocation would be considered for any future licenses," said spokeswoman Julianne Marshall. "Industry Operations will consider their application. However, they have an interest for public safety. This license was revoked for a reason."

A judge may still overturn ATF's decision.



TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Government; US: Idaho
KEYWORDS: banglist; jackboots
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1 posted on 03/16/2007 9:50:25 AM PDT by kiriath_jearim
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To: kiriath_jearim
Red's manager, Ryan Horsley, admits when the business sold guns it sometimes left blank required parts of a gun purchase form, omitted a background check on a special order, failed to log multiple handgun sales to the same customer in five working days, did not keep track of guns returned to manufacturers, threw away denied applications dealers are required to keep for 20 years and failed to post a gun safety sign and pamphlets.

Sounds to me like this guy needed to lose his dealer's license if he in fact violated all of these federal regulations and laws.

2 posted on 03/16/2007 9:54:11 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("Si vis pacem para bellum")
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To: kiriath_jearim

Sounds like Ryan Effed up


3 posted on 03/16/2007 9:55:22 AM PDT by mylife (The Roar of the Masses Could be Farts)
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To: kiriath_jearim
What part of the word "infringed" is so difficult for bureaucrats to understand?
4 posted on 03/16/2007 9:56:07 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam is a religion of peace, and Muslims reserve the right to kill anyone who says otherwise.)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
Sounds to me like this guy needed to lose his dealer's license if he in fact violated all of these federal regulations and laws.

Could you show me in the Second Amendment any reference to complying with the BATFE's Mickey Mouse paperwork?

What part of the word "infringed" do you find confusing?

5 posted on 03/16/2007 9:58:19 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam is a religion of peace, and Muslims reserve the right to kill anyone who says otherwise.)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner

If the Feds have five years of violations, Reds is no victim.


6 posted on 03/16/2007 9:58:55 AM PDT by neverhillorat (HILLORAT WINS, WE ALL LOSE)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner

I see maybe six errors out of 10,000 sales, most of them paperwork errors.

Remember the BATFE has admitted their own database of NFA weapons is nowhere near this accurate.


7 posted on 03/16/2007 9:59:43 AM PDT by Dave thA (www.liberty1st.org/blog)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
I agree, but if the guy wanted to be in the business he needs to follow the rules. We can try to change the rules, and should, but he still has to follow them.

No sympathy from me on this one.

8 posted on 03/16/2007 9:59:57 AM PDT by tcostell (MOLON LABE)
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To: kiriath_jearim

I caught this news at TheHighRoad last night. Bummer it is. Only been out to his shop once several years ago on the way to a hunting trip. He was one of Idaho's oldest gun shops.


9 posted on 03/16/2007 10:00:14 AM PDT by Domandred
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To: mylife
Sounds like Ryan Effed up

The BATFE has run 90% of gun dealers out of business in the past 15 years, just as they planned.

They know they can never outlaw guns, but if they make the paperwork so onerous and demand zero-defects (a practical impossibility), they can make it so there is no place to buy guns.

What part of the word "infringed" in the Second Amendment do you find to be unclear?

10 posted on 03/16/2007 10:01:17 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam is a religion of peace, and Muslims reserve the right to kill anyone who says otherwise.)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
Sounds to me like this guy needed to lose his dealer's license if he in fact violated all of these federal regulations and laws.

Really, it's not that hard to comply, unless you are hiring idiot employees. Around here, every gun shop I patronize is absolutely fanatical about sticking to the regs. I was once turned down for a purchase because the Post Office changed my zip code. The address was the same, just a different zip, and the shop told me to go get a new driver's license with the proper zip code before they'd sell me any guns.

-ccm

11 posted on 03/16/2007 10:01:31 AM PDT by ccmay (Too much Law; not enough Order.)
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To: kiriath_jearim

Somebody needs to revoke the ATF's license.


12 posted on 03/16/2007 10:01:45 AM PDT by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: tcostell
I agree, but if the guy wanted to be in the business he needs to follow the rules. We can try to change the rules, and should, but he still has to follow them.

So is all your paperwork in order?

The BATFE has a blueprint to drive as many gun dealers out of business as possible, a back-door way of outlawing guns.

They have eliminated 90% of gun dealers in the past fifteen years.

13 posted on 03/16/2007 10:03:21 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam is a religion of peace, and Muslims reserve the right to kill anyone who says otherwise.)
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To: ccmay
Really, it's not that hard to comply...

What part of the phrase "shall not be infringed" confuses you?

14 posted on 03/16/2007 10:04:32 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam is a religion of peace, and Muslims reserve the right to kill anyone who says otherwise.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

The second amendment deals with ownership, not the transfer or brokering of ownership. Not saying I'm a big fan of the BATF or their paperwork -- by and large I'm not, and think most of this crap is unnecessary. However, the second amendment doesn't apply here.


15 posted on 03/16/2007 10:05:32 AM PDT by 1L
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

You have any proof for your claim that there has been a 90% reduction in gun dealers in the past 15 years?


16 posted on 03/16/2007 10:06:14 AM PDT by NorthFlaRebel
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Nobody's infringing anything in this case. This guy openly admits to poor record keeping and administrative practices as required by federal law and supported by the National Rifle Association. He didn't abide by the rules and got his license yanked. No sympathy here.


17 posted on 03/16/2007 10:07:56 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("Si vis pacem para bellum")
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To: neverhillorat
"Red's dead, baby. Red's dead."
18 posted on 03/16/2007 10:09:09 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner

That's why the NRA receives no money or support from me.


19 posted on 03/16/2007 10:11:04 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (Southeast Asian War Games, Second place.)
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To: kiriath_jearim

The more the ATF does the more I pray to see the total destruction of this Jack booted THUG organization.


20 posted on 03/16/2007 10:11:49 AM PDT by Leatherneck_MT (Duncan Hunter in 2008)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum


This is the new ATFE tactic, find violations no matter how slight, and then work their administrative court steps.

I cannot believe anyone is dumb enough to think that this is a good thing.

Fine him? Certainly, but to jump from "failure to file proper form for 5 pistol purchases in a 7 day period" to "Revoked license" is draconian.


21 posted on 03/16/2007 10:12:02 AM PDT by padre35 (I am from the "let's stop eating our own" wing of the Republican Party)
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To: Dave thA
Red's manager, Ryan Horsley, admits when the business sold guns it sometimes left blank required parts, of a gun purchase form, omitted a background check on a special order, failed to log multiple handgun sales to the same customer in five working days, did not keep track of guns returned to manufacturers, threw away denied applications dealers are required to keep for 20 years and failed to post a gun safety sign and pamphlets.

There are more than six violations here...

22 posted on 03/16/2007 10:12:20 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("Si vis pacem para bellum")
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
Sounds to me like this guy needed to lose his dealer's license if he in fact violated all of these federal regulations and laws.

C'mon. You know and I know that all these regulations are in place so that licensed gun shops can get screwed by the government down the road. The ATF is your typical government bureaucracy that throws common sense out the window and make sure gun shops abide by arcane rules and laws. That's why a lot of mom-and-pop gun shops have went out of business because they couldn't afford to keep up with the massive compliance regulations.

23 posted on 03/16/2007 10:14:47 AM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Good night Chesty, wherever you are!)
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To: mad_as_he$$

Your choice, but, whether for good or ill, the NRA and the Gun owners of America are the faces of the legal American firearm-owning community and pretty much set the standards for legal firearm ownership.


24 posted on 03/16/2007 10:15:48 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("Si vis pacem para bellum")
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To: NorthFlaRebel
You have any proof for your claim that there has been a 90% reduction in gun dealers in the past 15 years?

Why Gun Dealers Have Dwindled

Drop in FFL numbers in the 1990's.

25 posted on 03/16/2007 10:16:01 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam is a religion of peace, and Muslims reserve the right to kill anyone who says otherwise.)
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To: tcostell
I agree, but if the guy wanted to be in the business he needs to follow the rules.

But the supposedly more competent legislators are not supposed to uphold/honor the constitution? Politicians created the problem and are to be held accountable, not the gun dealer being defrauded by politicians.

26 posted on 03/16/2007 10:18:17 AM PDT by Zon (Honesty outlives the lie, spin and deception -- It always has -- It always will.)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner

What other businesses are routinely and forcibly shut down for good by the federal government over trivial and infrequent paperwork mistakes? This isn't a case of selling High Points and Lorcins a case at a time to out of town diversity or losing AR-15s out of the back room, it's one in a thousand paperwork oversights. If any of this had any ties to violent crime, you can bet it would have made the mainstream press by now.


27 posted on 03/16/2007 10:18:18 AM PDT by CGTRWK
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To: tcostell
No sympathy from me on this one.

Yeah whatever. You're one of them "the law's the law!" types. You would have been laughed at back in the Continental days.

28 posted on 03/16/2007 10:18:45 AM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Good night Chesty, wherever you are!)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
I'm sympathetic to your view, but until we change the laws, you have to follow them.

I'm not a gun dealer, but I am in a highly regulated business with a lot of arcane rules, and complex licensing and registration requirements and I am in absolute compliance with every single one of them.

Like the BATFE, many of the rules are pointless and occasionally reps from our industry try to change them. But so long as the rules are the rules, we abide by them 100%.

29 posted on 03/16/2007 10:18:50 AM PDT by tcostell (MOLON LABE)
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To: ccmay

You make for a good little serf.


30 posted on 03/16/2007 10:20:06 AM PDT by Zon (Honesty outlives the lie, spin and deception -- It always has -- It always will.)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

I wholly agree, dude, and believe me, I'm no fan of the BATF or its onerous policies and its new 'gotcha' modus operandii. But, I don't see this guy's losing his dealers' license as a 2nd Amendment issue. It's more in the legislative realm, and it SHOULD be the jobs of the legislators to reign in the BATF on this stuff. But unfortunately, the law is the law here, and I know of several very good gunshops in my area that follow these rules to the letter and have no problems. He didn't and now he's out of business!


31 posted on 03/16/2007 10:21:38 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("Si vis pacem para bellum")
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
I'm not trying to be a wise guy but the ATF is a tax collection division of the federal gov.

Read "Unintended Consequences" and read the history of ATF enforcement and their goal to destroy gun dealers.
It opened my eyes!

32 posted on 03/16/2007 10:21:52 AM PDT by Zathras
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
Nobody's infringing anything in this case.

Nobody can have 100% compliance with BATFE paperwork. Over the years, as they squeeze out more dealers, they will be able nit-pick the remaining ones until there are none left.

The reduction in the number of FFL dealers has already affected competition. Gun prices are getting higher all the time, for no reason other than competition is going away.

Pricing guns out of the reach of ordinary citizens is infringing their 2nd Amendment rights.

33 posted on 03/16/2007 10:23:20 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam is a religion of peace, and Muslims reserve the right to kill anyone who says otherwise.)
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To: CGTRWK
What other businesses are routinely and forcibly shut down for good by the federal government over trivial and infrequent paperwork mistakes?

Smaller-scale Defense Contractors who do shoddy record keeping...

34 posted on 03/16/2007 10:24:25 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("Si vis pacem para bellum")
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
"the NRA and the Gun owners of America are the faces of the legal American firearm-owning community and pretty much set the standards for legal firearm ownership."
Gee and here I thought the constitution did that. This attitude about or from the NRA/GOA is what stops me from being more active in either organization.
35 posted on 03/16/2007 10:27:29 AM PDT by Durus ("Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." JFK)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
And I believe what you and the author of one of those pieces do not - that most people who let their license lapse did not need them in the first place and were not real dealers.

Some of you sure talk tough behind a keyboard, but I suspect you follow all applicable buying/selling gun laws.
36 posted on 03/16/2007 10:29:41 AM PDT by NorthFlaRebel
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
The BATFE has run 90% of gun dealers out of business in the past 15 years,

Huh, I havent seen any evidence of that.

Im not sticking up for BATF here but I find that claim incredulous

37 posted on 03/16/2007 10:30:45 AM PDT by mylife (The Roar of the Masses Could be Farts)
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To: Zathras

Agreed. But again, it is Congress' job to reign in the BATF. Unfortunately though, our wonderful voting public keeps resending enough gun-grabbers back to the Hill every election cycle so that nothing ever gets done. Ultimately, and I hate to say this, it is the people's fault for letting the BATF get out of control with this agenda.


38 posted on 03/16/2007 10:32:40 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner ("Si vis pacem para bellum")
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To: mylife
Im not sticking up for BATF here but I find that claim incredulous

Why Gun Dealers Have Dwindled

Drop in FFL numbers in the 1990's.

39 posted on 03/16/2007 10:32:51 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam is a religion of peace, and Muslims reserve the right to kill anyone who says otherwise.)
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To: kiriath_jearim
Oh, Red's. Used to live about 20 miles from there and I've probably been in the place a hundred times. You'd have to know it to understand what this really means - it isn't just a gun store, it's a general/second-hand/junk store too with some of the dangedest stuff you've ever seen in its inventory. Purchased a rifle for my late Dad in there once back in The Day. At the time they seemed pretty thorough to me.

I can't speak to the specifics of this case, of course, but I can say that it was one of the coolest stores I've ever patronized. I'm hoping they get their license back.

40 posted on 03/16/2007 10:33:24 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: mylife

The 90% figure is as contrived and cooked as the nonsense from The Brady Bunch. One in ten actual gun dealers did not go out of business over the past fifteen years.


41 posted on 03/16/2007 10:41:31 AM PDT by NorthFlaRebel
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To: NorthFlaRebel; mylife

oops, that should have read "Nine out of ten actual gun dealers did not go out of business over the past fifteen years".


42 posted on 03/16/2007 10:43:29 AM PDT by NorthFlaRebel
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To: NorthFlaRebel

need? what does need have to do with it? and what do you mean by real?
some of those people were people who wanted to be able to purchase firearms and have them shipped directly to their homes, not pay an extra $10-$50 to have it delivered to a dealer.
many of them ran their firearms business as a home based business. alot of them got jacked in various ways for it, so they dropped their license. others decided that the intrusion, and all the hoops they had to jump thru weren't worth it.
btw. do you NEED a drivers license? why don't you take a cab or a bus or walk or ride a bike? are you a real driver? do you drive a truck or a bus?


43 posted on 03/16/2007 10:45:00 AM PDT by absolootezer0 (stop repeat offenders - don't re-elect them!)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
"if they make the paperwork so onerous and demand zero-defects (a practical impossibility), they can make it so there is no place to buy guns."

The paperwork isn't that onerous and zero defects is easy to accomplish. Failure to send in multiple purchase forms, fill out the whole form, and falure to have paperwork on stuff sent back to the distributor, or manufacturer over a lengthy period like 5 years, when it's been pointed out at least once things are bad, indicates poor organizational skills, if not an uncaring, or lazy attitude in the matter.

" What part of the word "infringed" in the Second Amendment do you find to be unclear?"

The Constitution gives congress the power to regulate business. These are business forms, and this is a store. The guy needed significant improvement in his organizational and accounting skills.

44 posted on 03/16/2007 10:53:16 AM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: absolootezer0
Like I said, they were not actual dealers selling to people. The claim the poster is trying to make is that 90% of dealers have been put "out of business" by the BATF, when most of these people were never running a business to begin with. And he's tring to tie it to rises in gun prices. That's silly, because you or I could not have purchased from one of these people, who were not running an actual business, to begin with. Its just a faulty claim.

Have some small, real "mom & pop" dealers been run out of business due to BATF regulations? No doubt. But its ridiculous to claim that 90% of dealers who opperated 15 years ago are now out of business. Its just not true, just like 5,000 "children" a year are not "killed by guns"(or whatever the number of the day is over at Brady HQ).
45 posted on 03/16/2007 10:55:01 AM PDT by NorthFlaRebel
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
Sorry but this clraely isn`t a Second Amendment issue.
46 posted on 03/16/2007 10:55:41 AM PDT by neverhillorat (HILLORAT WINS, WE ALL LOSE)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
Sorry but this isn`t a Second Amendment issue.
47 posted on 03/16/2007 10:56:06 AM PDT by neverhillorat (HILLORAT WINS, WE ALL LOSE)
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To: NorthFlaRebel
"You have any proof for your claim that there has been a 90% reduction in gun dealers in the past 15 years?"

They changed the dealer license rules. They now require a fixed place of business, a store that conforms to local zoning rules. All those who had formerly sold from home, or other place of business as a secondary op, where not renewed.

48 posted on 03/16/2007 10:56:45 AM PDT by spunkets ("Freedom is about authority", Rudy Giuliani, gun grabber)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
When you have a business and sell over 10,000 guns over a five year period as the article suggests, you will make a mistake here or there. If you look hard enough, you shall find errors everywhere.

Essentially it's all "administrative" that they nailed him with. It sounds impressive, but it's administrative dot the "i", and cross his "t" type stuff.
49 posted on 03/16/2007 10:58:37 AM PDT by Red6 (Come and get it.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum


The current AG's policy...


50 posted on 03/16/2007 10:59:03 AM PDT by rahbert
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