They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious Bigotry, alive and well today

Saundra Duffy

[Colofornian]

I always thought that it was “through grace ~we are saved through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.”

I always thought that the supposed "most correct book on earth" (never mind that God, forbid, would ever start pitting one Scripture versus another like Joseph Smith did) said: "We are saved by grace AFTER all you can do."

This kind of grace, then, would never kick in til you've done all you can do. Who qualifies? Point out ONE person besides Jesus Christ who can say He's done everything He could do. (By our sins of omission alone, we all flunk)

[greyfoxx39]

You know, Coyote, the apologists just refuse to acknowledge that they are debating with those of us who have either "been there, done that" or have spent years dealing with mormons in their communities.

I sometimes think that some of these posts are written in a state of denial.

[greyfoxx39]

So, someone that couldn't pay the tithes could collect food etc. BUT NOT be allowed to enter the temple, in essence, not be allowed to go to church?

My widowed mother on social security was allowed to work in one of the church's office to "work off her tithe". She would never say what her hourly wage was.

[restornu]

off to learn more about infrared cooking boy the food taste great!:)

[colorcountry]

My current husband of 24 years, and I were never sealed. I didn’t break any vow with him.

Resty you are spouting lies. I will ask you to stop because you might just be mistaken....

Are you suggesting that he divorce me now that I have left the Church? Just wondered what all that “unequally yoked” stuff was about.

I thought your husband had past. Perhaps I’m recalling wrong. Will he be 100 in three years?

[greyfoxx39]

Are you suggesting that he divorce me now that I have left the Church? Just wondered what all that “unequally yoked” stuff was about.

Someone planning to tattle?

[restornu]

I always thought that it was “through grace ~we are saved through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.”
I always thought that the supposed “most correct book on earth” (never mind that God, forbid, would ever start pitting one Scripture versus another like Joseph Smith did) said: “We are saved by grace AFTER all you can do.”

This kind of grace, then, would never kick in til you’ve done all you can do. Who qualifies? Point out ONE person besides Jesus Christ who can say He’s done everything He could do. (By our sins of omission alone, we all flunk)

****

Than why is there this verse in the Bible

Isa. 62
11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

Philip. 2
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

[George W. Bush]

President Romney even as a...

I had to stop there, kind of swish it around my mouth like a wine tasting. Hmmm...neither bitter nor foul vintage like President Giuliani, not spoiled by age or inconsistency like a President McCain.

Okay, colorcountry, you've convinced me. I could live with that name next to the title. Admittedly, any name other than Clinton or Bush sounds kind of good. It's time for history to resume.

The initial post was to signify that indeed Romney was an informed, knowledgeable, ecclisiastical LEADER. He isn’t just a participant, who blushes at the embarrassing aspects of Mormonism as George W. Bush suggested.

He really doesn't give the impression of being a super-Mormon or holding ulterior motives as you seem to suggest.

I don’t care how many of you want to tag-team me...

I wasn't aware we had tag-teamed you. Not my intent. This is political. If any of these Mormons made any improper ecumenical suggestions toward me, arms would be brandished and gunfire would likely follow. I am a Calvinistic Baptist after all. Our tendencies in this regard are well-known.

This is not ecumenizing. It is politics.

Are you trying to suggest Romney doesn’t understand Mormonism? Because that is what my post was addressing.

Romney is reported to be a truly voracious reader with a truly curious mind. I would be rather surprised if he hasn't consumed a half-dozen or more systematic theology texts on the major orthodox Christian denominations.

I think he knows what he believes and why. I think he knows what we believe and why. I think a man like him is pretty practical, maybe utilitarian, in his approach to religion. What I've seen of him reminds me of many practical men I know in this approach toward religion.

At any rate, I take the position of Spurgeon when asked what we Baptists were to do about proselytizing the Catholics and the Protestants. He said that we'd worry about them when we'd preached the Gospel to all those who had never heard it before.

It's still good advice. Governor Romney has virtually the same King James Bible I do. He can choose what to make of it and respond to God's calling and the teaching of His Spirit, the same as the rest of us. He is responsible to it, like any of us.

And that is good enough. Barring any clear agenda by him to promote Mormonism in office (not something he did as governor), his religion is not a factor in whether I will ultimately support him.

It is his reliability on adhering to and implementing the conservative party platform that is the standard. He has neither passed that test fully nor failed it yet. He is an attractive candidate and his merits as a candidate warrant a fair hearing.

[colorcountry]

My husband knows all about my posting on FreeRepublic. He knows how I feel about the Church. He has been inactive for longer than I have been....I guess we are pretty equally yolked...(get it..yolked - that’s a joke son)

I haven’t told him I resigned, but I will just as soon as I received official notification.

I got my letter back from Greg Dodge at Church headquarters. It said my resignation needed to take place on a local level and he has forwarded my request to my Stake President. I don’t know how long that will take.

Don’t they realize that as soon as they received my letter, I was no longer a member....end of story. At least that’s what the law has determined. The LDS Church no longer should have any association with me at all. I hope they truly honor my request.

[colorcountry]

I didn’t mean to suggest it was you who tagged-teamed me. I received several responses directed at what Mormons considered misquotes by me concerning Romney and his OFFICE of Stake President, and the Melchezedek Priesthood he holds.

They were trying to obsfucate in my opinion, with several of them responding to a non-issue.

You, good Baptist that you are, are entirely entitled to your opinion. If you choose to support Romney it is between you and God in the voting booth....I really don’t get to have any say now do I?

[George W. Bush]

Bush is a Methodist. Has he done anything in his public life to help the Methodist denomination? I don’t think so. He doesn’t inject Methodism into his public life, though he does pray for guidance in his actions.

Ah, but there is one small advantage to having a Mormon president for SLC. When you send your missionaries overseas and they ask you what a Mormon is or who is a Mormon, you would be able to point at the U.S. president, the most powerful individual in the world and the most famous international figure globally.

Not that we Baptists are worried. But we do observe your missions activity, a natural given our own historic focus on missions. You are no doubt aware how we move into an area quite often after Mormon missionaries have been there.

Well, we Baptists are never afraid of any fight over scripture. Given we have nothing else to offer, we have little choice anyway.

I just thought I'd point out the one benefit that a Romney presidency might bring to Salt Lake's proselytization efforts, particularly overseas.

The advantage is quite minor. I doubt the Methodists have benefited much from Bush. I don't think it has made much difference to us Baptists to have had the names Carter and Clinton to bandy about (and those two were an embarassment to us domestically anyway). Still, it probably doesn't hurt. Well, unless your president happens to start bombing their country.

[MHGinTN]

Well, it's about time someone explained that one to you, Resty, so you don't continue posting it in error to support your works for salvation based religion:

Philip. 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (KJV)

Philip. 2:122:12 So that, my beloved, as ye always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, with fear and trembling your own salvation work out, 13 for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure. (Young's Literal Translation from the Greek) Notice the context: 'work out' can also be 'show forth'. You Mormon Apologists seem to think this 'show forth' means you have to do it because Jesus won't kick in His Grace until you've made Him owe it to you through your works of 'righteousness' ... which works are of course as filthy rags when done to earn His Righteousness offered to you as a gift through faith. As the Philippians would have 'shown forth' the evidence of their salvation in Paul's presence, he urges them to 'show forth' the evidence of their salvation in his absence, 'lest any man (or restornu) be found boasting'. As the 13th verese shows, it is God in them doing the work for His own good pleasure. If you study the scriptures in their context, you avoid many doctrinal or canon errors.

[DelphiUser]

777 the lucky post (Hah!) was supposed to be to the two of you, but I blew it, and only posted to my self.

I didn’t think either of you was going to answer with out this post, am I Right?

[DelphiUser]

This is a good place to ask a mormon what he thinks is the general mormon reaction to the PBS documentary? I saw parts of it, but not all, and it seemed to present some facts that the average mormon may not have been aware of. Care to elaborate?

For my part yawn...

It didn't really say anything I did not already know, and missed a lot that I did about every topic. I am propably not your average Joe Mormon.

Hey, we should trademark that

[restornu]

don’t you believe in pargraphs?

[George W. Bush]

If you choose to support Romney it is between you and God in the voting booth....I really don’t get to have any say now do I?

Of course not. Any attempt would likely be followed by gunfire. ; )

There is an old saw about the difference between Calvinists and Arminians (the two major theological strains of non-Catholics). It goes like this: A group of Roman bishops are standing about, entirely comfortable to be surrounded by a dozen Arminians with shotguns. But the approach of just one Calvinist with a slingshot makes them quake in fear.

You see, the Roman bishops know which one will shoot.

Although not well-known to the American public, it is widely understood by leading scholars around the world that America was founded by Calvinists. And it is true. It took an absolute belief in God's sovereignty over that of corrupt monarchs to shake off the hold of monarchism and to establish the first republic since the classic Greek era.

I thought I'd offer a few words of explanation so you grasp the context of my response. The SBC has a significant but discreet undercurrent of Calvinism as do conservative Presbyterians, among others.

[MHGinTN]

Because you've been kind enough to change font colors for my old eyes, I'll try to do better on paragraphing next time.: )

[Scotsman will be Free]

Sorry. I’ve been to many different churches and never heard a peep about Mormons.

[greyfoxx39]

Use it for your tagline.

[DelphiUser]

Aren't you one of the posters that complain about others reading your minds?

Yes, because people try to tell me I am not a Christian, while I am saying I am.

How do you know what Mitt or the prophet would do in this case?

I know because Mitt is a reasonable person. If he did such a thing in his first term, he’d be so toast running for the second. If he did such a thing in his second his legacy would be sealed.

I do not believe the prophet would call with anything more than he would do with any other president.

You do know that after Bill Clinton signed the “family act” president Hinckley called him to congratulate him and he rescinded it a few days later, right?

Yes, I believe that Mitt would be unduly influenced to sign a bill by a call from the prophet.

If for a moment we assume you are right, what bill would the prophet use this on-time shot on, remember, it would have to already be passed in the house and senate. If Mitt signed some extra constitutional executive order, he would be impeached so fast it would not matter.

The state church comment is ridiculous and you know it.

Yes, that is why I was saying please tell me you do not believe this.

The oath states "for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.

Is it Christian belief that God wishes to "build up His kingdom on earth and establish Zion?" State your source for this

How about Daniel 2:37-45: (http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dan/2/37-45#37)

37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters’ clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the airon, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

The kingdom of God will fill the whole earth and when that time comes I am pledged to dedicate all I have to it’s building, until then, I can help with Zion

A mormon would certainly be a better President than a democrat, I agree.

I have a hard time thinking of a worse president elect than Hitlery

I said:that you have the effect of temple covenants on a Mormon’s life all wrong.

In what way? Are you saying that they don't mean anything and are just a pro forma response?

Mormons who attend the temple are not some mind numbed robot; they are earnest seekers of God’s will. If you have someone who is a regular temple attendee, they will develop a relationship with God that can only enhance presidential performance.

That's certainly news to me. Remember I am a former mormon, coming from a mormon dominated area.

Just about any member could have told you that “the kingdom” is the kingdom spoken of by Daniel.