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'Explore as much as we can': Nobel Prize winner Charles Townes on evolution & intelligent design
UC Berkeley News ^ | 06/17/2005 | Bonnie Azab Powell,

Posted on 05/16/2007 6:54:51 AM PDT by SirLinksalot

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To: RightWhale; betty boop; .30Carbine
Fine, but what else is there?

The most certain - and therefore, highest priority - type of knowledge for me is divine revelation.

301 posted on 06/10/2007 11:05:28 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: RightWhale; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; cornelis; grey_whiskers
Fine, but what else is there?

Perhaps nothing that you would credit, RightWhale -- as long as you hope to apply the scientific method to problems of human creativity: Wrong tool, wrong language!!!

FWIW, the "what else?" would be mind and soul. But since we cannot put these "under a microscope," perhaps you will not consider them to be real entities.

302 posted on 06/10/2007 11:06:49 AM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: Alamo-Girl

There is only revelation. Nothing else. That much falls out of claustral philosophy so far. Give it certainty and highest priority, but it comes with that whether we decide so or not.


303 posted on 06/10/2007 11:09:36 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: Alamo-Girl
The most certain - and therefore, highest priority - type of knowledge for me is divine revelation.

If that is the case, you should never attempt, nor even offer opinions, in the field of science. You lack the qualifications.

304 posted on 06/10/2007 11:13:08 AM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: betty boop
mind and soul

There is no human creativity. All creativity is Divine. What else you got?

305 posted on 06/10/2007 11:13:32 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: Coyoteman

Goes for that opinion, too. The only creativity is Divine. Neither Mozart nor Sagan need think about that: it happens anyway.


306 posted on 06/10/2007 11:15:40 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: RightWhale; betty boop; .30Carbine; cornelis
There is only revelation. Nothing else.

On this point we may find agreement because I testify that God the Father has revealed Himself four ways: through Jesus Christ His only begotten Son, through the indwelling Holy Spirit, through Scripture and through Creation, both physical and spiritual.

307 posted on 06/10/2007 11:19:45 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

It’s probably just terminology, but I would say function or process rather than spiritual. Like I say, this claustral philosophy is, while far from new, relatively undeveloped as such and the concepts will sound somewhat odd at first.


308 posted on 06/10/2007 11:23:22 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: Coyoteman; betty boop; cornelis
me: The most certain - and therefore, highest priority - type of knowledge for me is divine revelation.

you: If that is the case, you should never attempt, nor even offer opinions, in the field of science. You lack the qualifications.

LOLOL!

In your view, only atheists can "do" or "comment on" science and presumably, mathematics. How funny!

A long illustrious line of Christian and Jewish scientists and mathematicians who went before you - and are in the field today - would no doubt be amused.

309 posted on 06/10/2007 11:24:44 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

Amen. If I know nothing else at all, I give thanks that I know this.


310 posted on 06/10/2007 11:25:20 AM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: RightWhale; betty boop; .30Carbine; cornelis
It’s probably just terminology, but I would say function or process rather than spiritual.

Sounds like an "observer problem" to me - i.e. what one knows of where/how he is "plugged into" the revelation.

311 posted on 06/10/2007 11:27:47 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: .30Carbine
Amen! Praise God!!!
312 posted on 06/10/2007 11:28:54 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
In your view, only atheists can "do" or "comment on" science and presumably, mathematics. How funny!

You stated:

The most certain - and therefore, highest priority - type of knowledge for me is divine revelation.

You have, by your statement, disavowed the scientific method. Why should you then feel qualified to offer opinions in the field of science?

(Mathematics is not a science.)

313 posted on 06/10/2007 11:30:40 AM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Coyoteman
If that is the case, you should never attempt, nor even offer opinions, in the field of science. You lack the qualifications.

Huhhhh?

Time to discard Gregor Mendel's studies then, as he lacked the qualifications. (I bet he didn't spend 6 years to finish grad school either)

314 posted on 06/10/2007 11:33:27 AM PDT by Hacksaw
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To: Hacksaw

Did Gregor Mendel use divine revelation as his source of knowledge, or did he use the scientific method?


315 posted on 06/10/2007 11:40:49 AM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: betty boop; Coyoteman; Alamo-Girl; .30Carbine; hosepipe; RightWhale; cornelis
Excuse the intrusion, but the following struck me as too limited a vision for bettyboop: "The sheer persistency of the questions is evidence in favor of the persistency of human nature as a given thing (i.e., something that doesn't "evolve")." I would humbly submit that humans are evolving, but on a level not easily identifiable to our common senses.

With the advent of Christ and spiritual regeneration for the individual human spirit within the human soul (behavior mechanism = soul; humankind have the added instructor of spirit complimenting our animal soul), an evolving of spiritual consciousness is happening, but, like evolution of species, this change is so minor when placed against the backdrop of the history and 'aliveness' of the entire species, we fail to see it for what it is, change, growth on a spirit level.

The left is seeking to bring change/evolution also, but the increments appear to be counter to the over-all welfare of the species and certainly inhibiting to the individual ... spiritually of course, when/if compared to the teaching and example of Our Lord.

In deference to Coyoteman, it may well be that the anchoring effect of scientific inquiry will tend to hold culture together as the left seeks to divide and segment and obliterate that which speaks of competition, growth, superior results-oriented behaviors. Science is not the enemy of philosophy, being but one brilliant child of same. Science may turn out to be the stronger child, the one which offers the protections and environment under which individuation can continue despite the leftists tendency to obliterate competition and individuation.

If it is the case that we as a species are evolving on a level not readily sensed in our familiar spacetime, then it will go on regardless of the piddling efforts of humans to direct or thwart it in paroxysms of pride.

316 posted on 06/10/2007 11:42:09 AM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: Coyoteman; Alamo-Girl
You have, by your statement, disavowed the scientific method.

That doesn't follow although I suppose one could say instead that she has disavowed the scientific method as the most certain source of knowledge.

317 posted on 06/10/2007 11:45:07 AM PDT by edsheppa
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To: RightWhale
There is no human creativity. All creativity is Divine. What else you got?

An interesting point of view. So what aspect of humans is supposedly in God's image?

318 posted on 06/10/2007 11:49:27 AM PDT by js1138
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To: MHGinTN
...evolving on a level not readily sensed in our familiar spacetime, then it will go on regardless of the piddling efforts of humans to direct or thwart it...

That's an encouraging word to me particularly, on a spiritual level actually, and I'm glad you included me in the ping to your whole post!

319 posted on 06/10/2007 11:54:51 AM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: Coyoteman

There was no disavowing in her post. You read into her post what you see due to your preconceived denigrating notions of people of faith. ... I use the occasional pneumatic nailgun, though I own more than four good hammers for various tasks.


320 posted on 06/10/2007 12:06:17 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: RightWhale; Coyoteman; Alamo-Girl; cornelis; hosepipe; .30Carbine; MHGinTN; DreamsofPolycarp
The only creativity is Divine. Neither Mozart nor Sagan need think about that: it happens anyway.

Sayeth RightWhale.

So I guess Mozart and Sagan are personally dispensable. Their only meaning and value consists in their function as dumb and blind vessels of divine will.

Is that what you're getting at, RightWhale?

321 posted on 06/10/2007 12:09:33 PM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: Coyoteman; betty boop; edsheppa; .30Carbine
You have, by your statement, disavowed the scientific method.

LOLOLOL!

edsheppa got it right, i.e. I do not embrace science as the most certain source of knowledge.

Modern science has limited its inquiry by methodological naturalism. By definition, it doesn't look for - or (allegedly) form conclusions about - anything that is not knowable and predictable and thus can be explained as caused by something which is natural, material or physical.

Science excludes miracles by definition, i.e. every phenomenon must have a physical cause to fall within the reach of science. That does not mean ipso facto that everything has a physical cause though certainly some scientists think so (Dawkins, Lewontin, Singer, Pinker, et al.)

Divine revelations are beyond the boundaries of science. They are miracles per se. For those of us who have experienced a divine revelation, it is the most certain knowledge of all.

God's ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts. Science can't "lay a glove" on Him.

I am amused by metaphysical naturalism. How arrogant of man to presume that if he cannot perceive it with his senses or mind, or put it to a test, it doesn't exist. [visions here of deep sea creatures having the same attitude, being astonished later on to discover there is life beyond the water...]

(Mathematics is not a science.)

Indeed, mathematics is not a science - but science, especially physics, depends on mathematics, i.e. "the unreasonable effectiveness of math" [Wigner.]


322 posted on 06/10/2007 12:10:01 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; RightWhale
Sounds like an "observer problem" to me - i.e. what one knows of where/how he is "plugged into" the revelation.

I catch a whiff of nihilism in RightWhale's remarks.... I can't imagine what revelation he is plugged into.

As you say, we have an "observer problem" here -- with RightWhale, you, and me, three different observers. Funny thing is, you and I see the same world virtually always. But I don't see RightWhale's world at all.

I wish he could explain it to me.

323 posted on 06/10/2007 12:16:34 PM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; hosepipe
...but science, especially physics, depends on mathematics, i.e. "the unreasonable effectiveness of math" [Wigner.]

I bet miracles work by the same method, if we could but see it. And I think revelations and the fulfillments of visions/dreams are made of the same stuff - numbers in right sequence all down the line (: It hasn't been given to us to see or measure these, which is why it's called faith, for sure, but to my thinking it is not less "reasonable" than the math that is "measurable".

324 posted on 06/10/2007 12:17:33 PM PDT by .30Carbine
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To: betty boop
So very true, dearest betty boop, we are so much in sync as observers, we could finish each other's sentences.
325 posted on 06/10/2007 12:20:00 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: .30Carbine
Thank you so much for sharing your insights!

Truly, all Christians have experienced at least one divine revelation, i.e. when it dawned in us that Jesus Christ is Lord. (I Cor 12:3) After that one, we just can't seem to get enough. LOL!

And I would agree that, at the root, there is a mathematical structure related to every phenomenon. That is, btw, the basis of Max Tegmark's Level IV Universe model.

326 posted on 06/10/2007 12:30:37 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: MHGinTN; Alamo-Girl; .30Carbine; hosepipe
Excuse the intrusion, but the following struck me as too limited a vision for bettyboop: "The sheer persistency of the questions is evidence in favor of the persistency of human nature as a given thing (i.e., something that doesn't "evolve")." I would humbly submit that humans are evolving, but on a level not easily identifiable to our common senses.

No intrusion, MHGinTN -- you are most welcome!

Your objection has legs. I was painting with too broad a brush, toward the end of falsifying the notion that human nature is not essentially distinguishable from animal nature, and certainly not different than that of our putative immediate ancestors, the great apes.

Of course there is spiritual evolution! I just take that for granted. I have direct evidence of it in my own life; plus as a student of culture, I know that man from the dawn of human history has been trying to understand the Cosmos and his place in it. In the process, certain great spiritual themes or truths have emerged that are astonishingly durable over time. They are so essentially basic, that each age reimagines them in its own way, building on the past with a view toward the future.

God is the ultimate symbol. Christianity is its greatest articulation. I am speaking abstractly here, although God is not an abstraction for me!

There is our risen Lord Jesus Christ, and His Holy Spirit. If human nature "evolves," it is by His ministrations, His workings in us, His drawing of us to Himself....

Thank you so much for your excellent essay/post, MHGinTN!

327 posted on 06/10/2007 12:36:07 PM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: Alamo-Girl

Duly noted, dearest co-author!


328 posted on 06/10/2007 12:37:07 PM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: .30Carbine; Alamo-Girl
I’m reading along, hoping what’s bouncing around inside will coalesce and come out again somehow creatively!

That is the hope of each of us, dear sister in Christ, God willing! :^) Thank you so much for your kindly words and support!

329 posted on 06/10/2007 12:40:46 PM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: MHGinTN; betty boop; .30Carbine
Sanctification is the spiritual evolution of a Christian. (Phl 2:12)

Thank God that will continue no matter what the leftists (or any thing or one) may accomplish. LOL!

And thank God, the Alpha and Omega, the First Cause and the Final Cause - for the purpose of all it, the new heaven and earth, His family - for that is when the spiritual evolution will be complete.

330 posted on 06/10/2007 12:44:17 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
The most certain - and therefore, highest priority - type of knowledge for me is divine revelation.

I do not embrace science as the most certain source of knowledge.

Why stop with divine revelation? When you reject science and the scientific method there are so many other sources of "knowledge" to choose from: magic, superstition, wishful thinking, old wives tales, folklore, what the stars foretell and what the neighbors think, omens, public opinion, astromancy, spells, aching bunions, Ouija boards, anecdotes, tarot cards, sorcery, seances, black cats, table tipping, witch doctors, crystals and crystal balls, numerology, palm reading, the unguessable verdict of history, tea leaves, hoodoo, voodoo, and all sorts of other weird stuff.

And if you reject science, just what method are you going to use to differentiate between these sources of "knowledge?"

331 posted on 06/10/2007 1:17:16 PM PDT by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Alamo-Girl

Probably turn out that ‘you’ are the revelation, nothing but revelation.


332 posted on 06/10/2007 1:19:21 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: js1138

There are no good translations of the Bible in English.


333 posted on 06/10/2007 1:22:36 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: betty boop

They have no inherent meaning nor value. Those are things we do, name things and assign value for our moral judgements.


334 posted on 06/10/2007 1:24:43 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: betty boop

Whatever whiff you catch is up to your sensory network. Whatever meaning you name is what you do. Funny thing, the Sultan of Istambul said once that most all lives are the same; maybe he was saying the same thing you said, but he also was making a pattern since there are no patterns in nature and the Sultan must decide many things every day. Some equate pattern and process. I see relation rather than pattern, many kinds; there are many but none in nature.


335 posted on 06/10/2007 1:30:49 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: Alamo-Girl; MHGinTN; hosepipe; .30Carbine
And thank God, the Alpha and Omega, the First Cause and the Final Cause - for the purpose of all it, the new heaven and earth, His family - for that is when the spiritual evolution will be complete.

Amen, my dearest sister in Christ! All thanks, praise, and glory be His, now and forever! Amen.

336 posted on 06/10/2007 1:33:01 PM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: RightWhale; Alamo-Girl; cornelis; hosepipe
Those are things we do, name things and assign value for our moral judgements.

But what is the basis of our "moral judgments?" Why do we feel impelled to "name things" and "assign value?" Why/how are such things relevant in your universe? Especially when you've already suggested that man is an entirely passive vehicle for divine will. So man doesn't have to make these distinctions at all. All he has to do is submit to being a passive tool. What moral judgment does a tool need?

337 posted on 06/10/2007 1:42:50 PM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: Alamo-Girl; Coyoteman
I hope you didn't get the impression I agree with you, I don't. I was merely pointing out that CM's inference was unwarranted.

IMO there is no knowably certain knowledge (yes, I do recognize the amusing self application). But history shows we can aspire to increasingly reliable knowledge. Naturalistic methods have a very good track record of creating it, divine revelation a very bad one. You are foolish to trust it.

338 posted on 06/10/2007 1:43:49 PM PDT by edsheppa
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To: betty boop

He’s trying to blame positivism on the Thomists cuz they read too much King James English!


339 posted on 06/10/2007 1:45:48 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: cornelis; RightWhale; Alamo-Girl
He’s trying to blame positivism on the Thomists cuz they read too much King James English!

Well jeepers, dear cornelis, that just about explains everything! LOL!!! :^)

340 posted on 06/10/2007 1:54:00 PM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: edsheppa
there is no knowably certain knowledge

So, how long have you had that problem?

341 posted on 06/10/2007 1:56:17 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: grey_whiskers
Let's see, honest writers at the third grade level. Here's a nice sequence for studying how people grapple justice and the knowledge of kinds of truth: Homer's Odyssey for a warm-up, then Aeschylus' Prometheus Bound, Sophocles Oedipus Rex, Antigone, and The Book of Job, and Plato's Apology.

Truth is, great literature written for beginners and the advanced.

342 posted on 06/10/2007 2:08:24 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: cornelis

Haha.


343 posted on 06/10/2007 2:09:10 PM PDT by edsheppa
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To: edsheppa
Haha.

That's one way of looking at it.

344 posted on 06/10/2007 2:13:09 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: js1138
So what aspect of humans is supposedly in God's image?

To reflect his attributes. Sovereignty is a big one. We are all gods, you know. But they say God is love. The power of love can make a blind man see.

345 posted on 06/10/2007 2:15:21 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: betty boop

Well, we’re getting a little far afield. The 200 milliseconds is the anchorpoint and what we build on that will have to answer the usual problems such as whether today is a good day to go to the mall. Most of the thirty or fifty final judgments of the nature of reality still remain as they were depending on the school. The brain prepares itself for action and the claustrum is the locus where either permission is granted to go ahead or not. Usually not or we would be simple creatures such as microbes that just follow the food gradients.


346 posted on 06/10/2007 2:21:50 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: cornelis

Yes, being able to good naturedly acknowledge a jibe at your own expense is a good thing even when the humor is weak.


347 posted on 06/10/2007 2:22:27 PM PDT by edsheppa
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To: edsheppa

Humor? Plotinus is the jokester! RightWhale is a runner-up.


348 posted on 06/10/2007 2:29:01 PM PDT by cornelis
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To: betty boop
what is the basis of our "moral judgments?"

Ask Paris. She'll have a couple suggestions for what doesn't work.

349 posted on 06/10/2007 2:33:06 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the Treaty)
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To: RightWhale
Read the AntiFederalist papers, which is the stenographers note of the 1787 Constitutional Convention, there being no journalists reports allowed. Closed-door, bipartisan, secret, rushed through—sound familiar?

Well, the parallel becomes even better when you consider what ended up happening to the existing inhabitants and dominant culture, upon passage of said 'closed-door, bipartisan etc. etc.' ;-)

Thx for pointers; the more so about ocular preservation.

Cheers!

350 posted on 06/10/2007 3:39:16 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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