I am not able to watch so I won’t be able to say how well he did, but he did do well on Sunday with Chris Wallace.
I will always support Tony, which doesn’t mean that I will always agree with him, but his ability to make his case without behaving badly is something we need on the right.
As for being defensive about the bill, I have been very clear that I didn’t like it but that the behavior by both sides on the right has been an embarassment. The leap that you made in your comment about defending the bill makes me wonder if in your concern about the bill, you can’t process what I am saying. It’s not great, but we don’t have a lot of choices. I am against the demonization and caricatures.
Yes, let’s have debates, but no namecalling and let’s see someone come up with workable and realistic solutions. It’s important to have debates, but let’s be mature about it. This whole namecalling business is alienating and it’s not just me. I’ve read from many who are fed up with the lines about traitors, el Presidente, just as they are fed up with lines about bigots.
I rejected the left for Groupthink, why would I want it on the right? If the right is telling me that I am free to do as I am told, that’s a great way for the right to marginalize itself.
And it’s getting more difficult to find conservatives who understand that no one gets everything that they want. Many have read Thomas Sowell on Spoiled Brat politics, but it’s sounding a lot like that on the right, and it’s bad for conservatism.
I am starting to wonder if FR and other conservative media is enabling conservatives and Republicans to undermine themselves as dissent appears to be not an option. If that’s the case, it’s conservatism’s loss and the country gets another form of Nutroots.
I am sick to death of hearing this.
Answer this one question: do you seriously assert that you are willing to accept the legalization of 10 to 20 unskilled, uneducated, non-English speaking peasant laborers into America, along with the 20 to 40 million family members (spouse, parents, children) they may bring with them under the Z2 and Z3 visas?
Yes or no.
Sadly, I arrived at this conclusion some time ago. I am opposed to this immigration bill because I think while its "strict" provisions are unenforceable, the Z visa is just a joke and it really doesn't solve any problems. But I think it was partly brought on by those very conservatives who were unwilling to discuss it a year ago, when Bush first floated an immigration plan. The matter has got to be dealt with but politicians are unwilling to touch it because they know it's a live wire, so Bush should at least have gotten points for having the courage to bring it up.
But he didn't, because the self-designated "base" was unwilling to discuss or permit discussion of alternatives to the unrealistic, draconian things they were advocating. Their constant ridicule and obvious hatred of the President probably did have a lot to do with getting Dems elected and ultimately worsening the conservative position. And I think it is driving conservatives away, because any attempt at rational discussion is met with invective and rage.
We don't need a lot of choices SL, just the right ones.
You know from my previous posts that I am a Tony fan but "our people" have severely poo'd the scrooch on this one.
The basic problem is two fold:
1..The administration no longer has the credibility that it will do the right thing. It has lost the conservative eye of the tiger ...so to speak.
2..Conservatives (the party base) simply doesn't trust our leaders any more because of reason #1. I'm sure W has good intentions but we no longer have complete trust in his judgment, certainly not on this issue.
That's not to denigrate all the achievements over the past 6 years but this immigration amnesty bill is a sham..it stinks and conservatives can see it.
W should stop trying to pull the wool over our eyes, show that we have the intent to enforce existing laws, prosecute the employers that hire illegals and then, maybe then.....
It won't happen of course. I feel bad for Tony having to defend this travesty but anything we can to to kill it and keep it from being resurrected, I'm all for it.
There is right and there is wrong, and there's no reason NOT to expect that we will get "right" from the government, and not "wrong".
There are things we need to compromise on, things that aren't easily broken into good and bad, right and wrong.
Other things there is a clearly correct thing to do, and compromise is to hurt people.
I support amnesty for long-term illegals, and I hate this bill because it is simply wrong, it's not fair to citizens, it's not fair to legal immigrants, it's not fair to those WAITING IN LINE expecting America to be a nation of laws.
Instead, it hurts all those people in favor of law-breakers, illegal immigrants who couldn't be bothered to follow the process, and instead broke into our country and live in the shadows, with no intention of assimilating.
Under this bill, a legal immigrant caught having not paid his taxes the past 5 years will be fined and deported, while the illegal immigrant caught not paying taxes will be given amnesty and allowed to stay.
Under this bill, the citizen who is caught as part of a gang will go to jail, while the illegal immigrant who is caught as part of a gang will be given amnesty and allowed to walk free simply by denouncing his gang.
Under this bill, a citizen who wants to go to a college in another state has to pay out-of-state tuition, while an illegal from another COUNTRY who wants to go to college in ANY state gets in-state tuition, for example if they manage to graduate high school.
Under this bill, people who are IN LINE waiting, who joined the line after 2005, including wives and children of LEGAL IMMIGRANTS waiting to come into the country, will be PUT IN LINE BEHIND the illegal immigrants who just snuck into the country in December of 2006.
Let me repeat that -- if you were a LEGAL IMMIGRANT, and put your family member on the list to enter the country in June of 2005, they would get in quicker if you had told them to SNEAK in last December than they will since you were a law-abiding legal immigrant.
So don't tell me about "compromise", and "not getting everything I wanted". I know I'm not getting what I want, I want partial amnesty, payment of back taxes, illegals in back of the line of EVERY legal, payment of yearly fees by those who have been here long enough and clear background and remain waiting for their turn to get legal papers.
I've expressed my opinion on this board many times, and almost nobody has called me names, or shouted me down, even though my position is much more "liberal" in their minds than what they would accept. Opposition to this bill is not the same as close-mindedness, in fact opposition to this bill is the only SANE choice.
What you are failing to consider is that any “compromise” is a loss to conservatives. It seems rather fatalistic to accept the fact that conservatives must fight a losing battle. The Republic has been pecked away, compromise by compromise, and so you are simply arguing that it is lost anyway, so let’s just make it a known rate of failure.
Compromise of any size on the illegals will doom us.
This is not just some policy or appropriations measure.
This is it.
We become a majority Mexican illegals founded nation in the next 50 years or not.
It’s pretty simple.
You have to choose.
Stay chummy in your mind with Bush and Toney or save the country. Let them in and America will not stay the same. Trust me. I spent two decades laregly in Central and South America.
It’s your call.
To you outright lying appears not to be "behaving badly".
I am starting to wonder if FR and other conservative media is enabling conservatives and Republicans to undermine themselves as dissent appears to be not an option.
There is nothing wrong with dissent, it's the blatant dishonesty that's unpalatable. If Bush, and Snow, would have come out truthfully and admitted that "Of course it's amnesty, but we believe this type of amnesty is good for the Country", their at least could be a debate. If they would have said "Yes, we know the first thing this bill will do is grant immediate legal status to millions of people who are now illegal and this will be done before any efforts at enforcement", the merits of the action could be discussed. If they would have admitted that "Sure, Americans will do any job if their paid enough, but we think it is good for America to bring in people from other countries who will do the work cheaper than Americans", the pros and cons could be looked at. If there would have been an admission that "We know this bill will cost the taxpayers trillions of dollars, but it will be money well spent", Americans could judge for themselves. This of course, was not done,in fact, you'll note that rarely was there any mention of American citizens by the promoters of this bill.
The American people have been lied to over and over and over again. FR is a place with many members who work to uncover the lies and to hold the liars accountable. If you think that this is not "civil" your definition of civility needs to be adjusted. If you believe the lies and manipulation that were used to try to ram this bill down the throats of the American people was just "dissent", and those who supported doing this just "dissenters", you are on the wrong forum. We will not let people destroy our Country and we will call a spade a spade and a traitor a traitor. Live with it!
You’re surely right about that! You’re a breath of fresh air. I read on a thread last night earlier, one of the flame-throwers wondering if all of the “Bushbots” were gone off FR yet! That might not be an exact quote, but I was so mad, I couldn’t even remember what the person said exactly.
But it seems that the agenda of many of them is to drive off any and all people that still like and support our President and many of our other Republicans just because of that stupid immigration situation. Maybe it’s not stupid in itself, and not all of the people concerned about it aren’t stuped per se. No, it is the behavior of a lot of them that are bashing him/them endlessly!