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To: GunRunner; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe
If slavery is wrong, and God is always right, why did God not say "Free your slaves, no matter how much it costs you". The believers can twist themselves into all types of knots trying to explain this, but a much more believable explanation to me is that the writers of the Bible had no problem with slavery, and as such, neither did the God they created.

Slavery is wrong because it regards a person as being less than what God created him to be: Made in the image of God, and thus as having unalienable rights -- unalienable because vested in him by his Creator. Christians are taught that God loves and values each unique human being. Slavery in the United States could exist only because people could not see the image of Christ in the face of a black man. This is human ignorance pure and simple. But God's second law (the minor one :^) ) commands us to love our neighbor -- who is one who bears the image of Christ, whether he be a Christian or no. Christians already have that responsibility, and will be judged accordingly by God.

God has made His intent plain. If people don't get the message, I don't expect He's going to indulge in a lot of righteous nagging: His Law is plain, and it's up to us to live by it (or not, as the case may be). As it turned out, in time people "saw the light," and the institution of slavery in the West disappeared, thanks largely to eloquent, dedicated Christians, such as Wilberforce....

I gather you think that God didn't do WRT slavery what you think He ought to have done. Did you mean to "create" a "man-sized" God here (sized to the limit of our intellect and imagination), as you suggest the writers of the Holy Scriptures did?

In regard to the writers of the Old Testament, in their time slavery as an institution was just a part of the natural social landscape, usually involving spoils of war; and it certainly wasn't confined to black persons. It took the Incarnation of Jesus before the world would be taught that slavery is wrong, for the reasons I gave above.

Thanks so much for writing, GunRunner!

576 posted on 07/02/2007 2:13:45 PM PDT by betty boop ("Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- A. Einstein)
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To: betty boop
God has made His intent plain. If people don't get the message, I don't expect He's going to indulge in a lot of righteous nagging....

I'll agree with that.

So, let me know if anyone in this thread changes his/her mind, if you will! ;-`

580 posted on 07/02/2007 2:39:23 PM PDT by unspun (Acknowledgment of God affords life, popular & national sovereignty, liberty, responsibility)
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To: betty boop
Slavery is wrong because it regards a person as being less than what God created him to be

Now we have the XIVth Amend which allowed legal decision to declare a Corporation a legal person--a person that can own private property and donate to political campaigns and that person we can own, buy and sell, not a block from where slaves used to be bought and sold. Seems odd to abolish slavery and immediately reinstitute it in a slightly different form as if Commerce requires it.

581 posted on 07/02/2007 2:43:57 PM PDT by RightWhale (It's Brecht's donkey, not mine)
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To: betty boop
As it turned out, in time people "saw the light," and the institution of slavery in the West disappeared, thanks largely to eloquent, dedicated Christians, such as Wilberforce....

There is a point to be made (and a good one at that), that religion, specifically Christianity, made the institution of slavery last much longer than it need be.

Read the writings of Jefferson Davis or other Confederates. They specifically cite the Bible as a reference condoning slavery. Christianity was quite late in the game when it came to finally eliminating it as an institution.

The simple fact is that while you see the coming of Jesus as the arbiter in eliminating injustice and forming new covenants, I see the lack of condemnation for slavery in the OT just another bit of evidence that it was written by men stuck in their own time, not by divine providence.

583 posted on 07/02/2007 2:51:18 PM PDT by GunRunner (Come on Fred, how long are you going to wait?)
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To: betty boop; All; Whosoever; Heretic; satan
[... In regard to the writers of the Old Testament, in their time slavery as an institution was just a part of the natural social landscape, usually involving spoils of war; and it certainly wasn't confined to black persons. It took the Incarnation of Jesus before the world would be taught that slavery is wrong, for the reasons I gave above. ..]

That was a lovely piece/essay on God in the old testament and beyond..

Many (moderns) who bleed themselves over SLAVERY openly and with the stink of prejudice overlook that SOCIALISM is exactly Slavery by Government.. and socialism is caused by democracy.. and thats WHY we in the U.S. have a republic, a unique republic never before or since been replicated anywhere at any time even partially.. The U.S. system is NOT A DEMOCRACY.. Three WORDS are omitted (on purpose) from the American Constitution 1) democracy.. 2) democratic.. 3) democrat.. by design.. And almost all Americans are not schooled to know the difference between privileges and RIGHTS.. especially UNalienable rights..

Pity... If the government can(is allowed) TAX something you OWN it is RENTING IT TO YOU... Thats slavery at best and prison at worst..

585 posted on 07/02/2007 3:13:08 PM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: betty boop
in time people "saw the light," and the institution of slavery in the West disappeared, thanks largely to eloquent, dedicated Christians, such as Wilberforce....

Don't forget the small contributions of a certain English naturalist, who included the following red hot anti-slavery jeremiad (among several others of the like) in his best selling scientific travelogue:

On the 19th of August we finally left the shores of Brazil, I thank God, I shall never again visit a slave-country. To this day, if I hear a distant scream, it recalls with painful vividness my feelings, when passing a house near Pernambuco, I heard the most pitiable moans, and could not but suspect that some poor slave was being tortured, yet knew that I was as powerless as a child even to remonstrate. I suspected that these moans were from a tortured slave, for I was told that this was the case in another instance. Near Rio de Janeiro I lived opposite to an old lady, who kept screws to crush the fingers of her female slaves. I have stayed in a house where a young household mulatto, daily and hourly, was reviled, beaten, and persecuted enough to break the spirit of the lowest animal. I have seen a little boy, six or seven years old, struck thrice with a horse-whip (before I could interfere) on his naked head, for having handed me a glass of water not quite clean; I saw his father tremble at a mere glance from his master's eye. These latter cruelties were witnessed by me in a Spanish colony, in which it has always been said, that slaves are better treated than by the Portuguese, English, or other European nations. I have seen at Rio de Janeiro a powerful negro afraid to ward off a blow directed, as he thought, at his face. I was present when a kind-hearted man was on the point of separating forever the men, women, and little children of a large number of families who had long lived together. I will not even allude to the many heart-sickening atrocities which I authentically heard of; nor would I have mentioned the above revolting details, had I not met with several people, so blinded by the constitutional gaiety of the negro as to speak of slavery as a tolerable evil. Such people have generally visited at the houses of the upper classes, where the domestic slaves are usually well treated; and they have not, like myself, lived amongst the lower classes. Such inquirers will ask slaves about their condition; they forget that the slave must indeed be dull, who does not calculate on the chance of his answer reaching his master's ears.

It is argued that self-interest will prevent excessive cruelty; as if self-interest protected our domestic animals, which are far less likely than degraded slaves, to stir up the rage of their savage masters. It is an argument long since protested against with noble feeling, and strikingly exemplified, by the ever-illustrious Humboldt. It is often attempted to palliate slavery by comparing the state of slaves with our poorer countrymen: if the misery of our poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin; but how this bears on slavery, I cannot see; as well might the use of the thumb-screw be defended in one land, by showing that men in another land suffered from some dreadful disease. Those who look tenderly at the slave owner, and with a cold heart at the slave, never seem to put themselves into the position of the latter; what a cheerless prospect, with not even a hope of change! picture to yourself the chance, ever hanging over you, of you wife and your little children - those objects which nature urges even the slave to call his own - being torn from you and sold like beasts to the first bidder! And these deeds are done and palliated by men, who profess to love their neighbours as themselves, who believe in God, and pray that his Will be done on earth! It makes one's blood boil, yet heart tremble, to think that we Englishmen and our American descendants, with their boastful cry of liberty, have been and are so guilty: but it is a consolation to reflect, that we at least have made a greater sacrifice, than ever made by any nation, to expiate our sin."

Charles Darwin, The Voyage of the Beagle, Chapter XXI


586 posted on 07/02/2007 3:26:07 PM PDT by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
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To: betty boop; unspun; hosepipe; .30Carbine
Thank you so much for your excellent essay-post and for sharing all of your insights!

I only have a few points to add.

First, that Israel was in bondage in Egypt for four hundred years before God freed them. Their history as recorded in the Tanakh reveals Truth to us through the indwelling Spirit.

Among these truths, is that bondage is not only a matter of circumstance but also of fear and will. Which is to say, whom or what do we serve?

As He freed Israel from the bonds of Egypt, Christ has set us free from the bonds of sin and death - which supersedes our circumstance in this temporal life.

While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. – 2 Peter 2:19

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. - Hebrews 2:14-15

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. – Romans 8:14-15

Servants, be obedient to them that are [your] masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether [he be] bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him. – Ephesians 6:5-9


602 posted on 07/02/2007 8:24:14 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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