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Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets'
The Sunday Telegraph (UK) ^ | 6/30/2007 | Tim Shipman

Posted on 06/30/2007 4:36:50 PM PDT by 1066AD

Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets' By Tim Shipman in Washington, Sunday Telegraph Last Updated: 12:30am BST 01/07/2007

Lee Harvey Oswald could not have acted alone in assassinating President John F Kennedy, according to a new study by Italian weapons experts of the type of rifle Oswald used in the shootings.

The new findings will encourage conspiracy theorists In fresh tests of the Mannlicher-Carcano bolt-action weapon, supervised by the Italian army, it was found to be impossible for even an accomplished marksman to fire the shots quickly enough.

The findings will fuel continuing theories that Oswald was part of a larger conspiracy to murder the 35th American president on 22 November 1963.

The official Warren Commission inquiry into the shooting concluded the following year that Oswald was a lone gunman who fired three shots with a Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle in 8.3 seconds.

But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day.

Two of the bullets hit Kennedy, with the first - the so called "magic bullet", ridiculed by conspiracy theorists - also wounding the governor of Texas, John B Connally, after it had struck the president.

In a further challenge to the official conclusions, the Italian team conducted two other tests at the former Carcano factory in Terni, north of Rome, where the murder weapon was made in 1940.

They fired bullets through two large pieces of meat, in an attempt to simulate the assumed path of the magic bullet. In their test, the bullet was deformed, unlike the first bullet in the Kennedy assassination, which remained largely intact.

The second bullet is thought to have missed its target. According to the commission, the third disintegrated when it hit Kennedy's head. The new research suggests, however, that this is incompatible with the fact that Oswald was only 80 yards away, in a book depository, when he fired. The Italian tests suggest that a bullet fired from that distance would have emerged intact from Kennedy's head, implying that the third shot must instead have come from a more distant location.

The findings will encourage conspiracy theorists who hold that Oswald could not have fired three shots in time. For each shot, he would have had to push up the gun's bolt handle, pull the bolt backwards to eject the spent cartridge case and then forward to slide the next round into the chamber, before turning down the bolt handle to lock it in place.

Nearly seven out of 10 Americans believe that Kennedy was murdered as a result of a plot. Depending on which theory they back, the participants supposedly included any or all of the CIA, the Mafia, the Cubans, the FBI chief J Edgar Hoover, the military-industrial complex and Vice-President Lyndon B Johnson.

It is the second challenge in two months to the view of the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone. In May, researchers at Texas A&M University argued that the ballistics evidence used to rule out a second gunman had been misinterpreted.

The findings will be a frustration to Vincent Bugliosi, the author of a 1,600-page book, also published in May, which claimed to put to rest all the conspiracy theories of the past 44 years.

The Italian findings will be hotly contested by those who believe that Oswald was a lone gunman - not least because they contradict firing tests previously conducted, using Oswald's actual rifle, by the FBI and the US Marines, and another study by Washington police marksmen using an identical gun.

Oswald would only have needed to reload the weapon twice in the eight seconds to get off all three shots, since the time was measured only from the moment he fired the first shot. The FBI concluded that a marksman could have fired a shot at least every 2.3 seconds.

In his book, Mr Bugliosi details how after just two or three minutes' practice with the gun in 1979, three police marksmen aiming at three targets representing Kennedy at the same distance from Oswald, got away three shots in less than eight seconds.

One marksman hit the targets twice and missed the third shot by an inch. A second shooter scored a "kill" with his second shot.

Mr Bugliosi recounts three separate ballistics tests that found that the magic bullet could have wounded Kennedy and Connally and emerged in similar condition to the real bullet. But that is unlikely to stop the Italian research fuelling another generation of conspiracy writers.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: banglist; conspiracy; grassyknoll; grassyknollsociety; jfk; jfkassassination; magicbullet; notthisshitagain; oswald; tinfoil
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To: HEY4QDEMS
I saw a docu on the History channel or Discovery where the acual rifle was used and all participants got off the three rounds in less than eight seconds.

In the one that I saw, one of the marksmen even made the comment that it wasn't really very difficult.

51 posted on 06/30/2007 5:01:34 PM PDT by CommerceComet
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To: stylin19a
Too bad for you that the rifle had a six round clip with one round remaining in it.

I see that you've already stepped away from your keyboard.

52 posted on 06/30/2007 5:02:18 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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To: razorback-bert

Aw Geez.

I posted too fast with no proofreading.

Yes, it is being repeated later.


53 posted on 06/30/2007 5:03:09 PM PDT by razorback-bert (Posted by Time's Man of the Year)
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To: 1066AD

Bam! one two three.. Bam! one two three... Bam! Yeah, about 8.3 seconds.

Someone needs to explain to these clowns that the first round is already loaded and doesn’t really count on the “clock.” I also just gotta say that anyone who has made a dime selling a book or profiting from this sordid business in our nations history can go to hell. And I would have never voted for a Kennedy, more than likely. The End.


54 posted on 06/30/2007 5:03:12 PM PDT by Freedom4US
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To: PAR35

You had to go and spoil it, now, didn’t you? It is more fun to see stupid reporters/studies twisting in the wind. :)


55 posted on 06/30/2007 5:03:41 PM PDT by DennisR (Look around - there are countless observable hints that God exists)
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To: 1066AD
I'm sooooooooooo tired of this kind of stuff being dredged up again. Just watch the excellent show that the History channel did 2 months ago. A) Oswald was an expert marksman... his Marine record proves it. They even have his shooting range logbook. B) A weapons expert fired the exact same rifle, 3 shots just like oswald did at a target the same range as Kennedy was and took a niceeeeeee longggggg pauseeee before the third shot and still managed to break Oswald's time. C) contrary to some reports that Oswald's rifle was not accurate, the weapon was found to be perfectly sighted in.

Now let's go over the real facts... Oswald was an expert marksman at 200 yards, the distance to Kennedy was 80 yards. He had a perfectly sighted in weapon. He had plenty of time to fire 3 rounds (8 seconds). There were 3 shots fired, two hits. There were 3 shell casings found at his sniper nest. Every thing else is tin foil hat stuff.

Oswald was desperate to be famous and important (ask his brother), he achieved his goal.

56 posted on 06/30/2007 5:05:04 PM PDT by DCBurgess58 (We have a French knife in our back)
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To: shove_it; ladyinred; Mr. K

Thanks. Saw it a few minutes ago.

I’m with ladyinred and Mr. K.

People can argue every point as if they can’t see the forest for the trees. The trees being LBJ, and he was more than ruthless enough to ‘get r done.’


57 posted on 06/30/2007 5:05:22 PM PDT by leadpenny
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To: Freedom4US

errata: “Go to hell” refers to those making money of conspiracy theories. Apologies proffered.


58 posted on 06/30/2007 5:05:56 PM PDT by Freedom4US
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To: CommerceComet
"one of the marksmen even made the comment that it wasn't really very difficult."

But was he shooting at a moving car?

59 posted on 06/30/2007 5:06:01 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: LucyT

ping.


60 posted on 06/30/2007 5:06:07 PM PDT by leadpenny
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To: 1066AD

LOL...where is the picture of the guy holding his head and saying “Not this S*** again...”


61 posted on 06/30/2007 5:07:13 PM PDT by rlmorel (Liberals: If the Truth would help them, they would use it.)
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To: 1066AD
But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day.

These "Experts" couldn't fire three shots in less than 19 seconds? Were they shooting with their toes? I've seen muzzle-loaders fired three times in less than 19 seconds.

Assume that the first shot is locked and loaded. The clock starts with the first shot. That's 9.5 seconds per shot to fire a bolt-action rifle with a multi-shot magazine. A chimp could do it. But maybe not an Italian "firearms expert." I think Oswald bought his rifle from a want ad -- "Italian army rifle,used, never fired, dropped once."

I know some bolt actions are faster than others, but I've never heard of one that takes ten seconds per shot. That's ridiculous.

62 posted on 06/30/2007 5:07:31 PM PDT by ReignOfError (`)
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To: 1066AD
HEADS UP!! Tonight on the history Channel there is a JFK conspiracy show debunking the entire theory. It is the best documentary that I have ever seen, hosted by Peter Jennings. It completely debunks the theory stated above. Oswald had time to fire these shots as demonstrated with the same gun used and Oswald's training in the Marine corps. They had his range notebook (not sure that is the correct term), which shows that Oswald was very consistent day after day hitting his range targets. He was a very good shot. It also shows the configuration of the car that Kennedy was shot in. The seats were not lined up in the same way a normal car is. Therefore the "magic" bullet did not travel in the way that theorist say that it would in order to hit the Governor. It also addresses Oliver Stone's version in JFK. Actually, he is torn to pieces for making such an irresponsible POS movie off of this. I promise that this is the BEST show on the conspiracy. History Channel 8pm The Kennedy Assasination: Beyond Conspiracy if you miss it tonight you can catch it at midnight or they will replay it again
63 posted on 06/30/2007 5:07:44 PM PDT by submarinerswife
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To: California Patriot
I’m no expert on the JFK assassination, nor do I plan to become one. But for those who are: Why are some people so easily impressed by arguments, and even evidence, that something “could not have happened”? Such a claim doesn’t seem all that persuasive to me.

The most convincing argument I've yet seen that Oswald did not act alone is the view from the shooter's nest in the book repository. During a recent worktrip to Dallas, I had a little time on my hands and walked to the scene of the crime. Went to the sixth floor and crouched at the window next to the Oswald window, which is now glassed in.

I'm not sniper material by a long shot, but I'm a pretty dang good shot through open sights. Crouching right there, the thought of making those shots with a pristine rifle, much less that clunker, looked WAY unlikely. WAY.

I also stood behind the fence on the grassy knoll. Hard to imagine an EASIER shot, and the trajectory to me matched PERFECTLY with what my impression has always been when viewing the Zapruder film.

BTW, a question for those more familiar than I with Dealey(sp?) Plaza: At the spot behind the fence on the grassy knoll, was that big storm drain in place in 1963? I'm assuming not, since I've never seen mention of it, but man oh man, talk about an escape route; the shooter could've made the shot, dropped into the hole, and scurried away underground.

Side commentary: What an awful thing that day turned out to be. First of all, such an assassination is cold-blooded unjustifiable murder any way you cut it. Second, IMHO a far sleazier man inherited the office. Third, a mediocre-at-best president became an idealized martyr.

MM (in TX, and not a conspiracy theorist)

64 posted on 06/30/2007 5:08:05 PM PDT by MississippiMan (Behold now behemoth...he moves his tail like a cedar. Job 40:17)
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To: 1066AD
they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds ...

You only load TWO cartridges; the first shot is pre-loaded.

I believe the conspiracy is real.

65 posted on 06/30/2007 5:08:37 PM PDT by brityank (The more I learn about the Constitution, the more I realise this Government is UNconstitutional !!)
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To: The KG9 Kid

Italians can’t do the work that Oswald did.


66 posted on 06/30/2007 5:09:03 PM PDT by shove_it (old Old Guardsman)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
I saw a 70 year old man fire the same number of shots in that timeframe using the same rifle.

Hmmmmmmm.....maybe HE shot Kennedy!

67 posted on 06/30/2007 5:09:52 PM PDT by GreenHornet
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To: 1066AD

“Oswald” was not his real name. The US Government created that name for him. He was part of the Secret Service and his job was to protect the President that day and his gun had gone off accidentally. That’s my theory.


68 posted on 06/30/2007 5:10:15 PM PDT by tsowellfan (http://www.cafenetamerica.com)
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To: 1066AD
They're arguing the wrong issue. The proof of the conspiracy is the timing of the shots, not the length of time to fire all three shots. Arlen Spector created the Single Bullet theory to account for Kennedy and Connally being hit almost simultaneously. The Zapruder film show JFK reacting to being hit, and shortly after, Connally being hit. If they were hit by two separate shots, but within one second of each other, then you have evidence of a conspiracy, since Oswald (or whoever was firing) would not have time to reload, aim, and shoot. Therefor, the commission had to reason that they were hit by the same bullet, and created the Single Bullett Theory.

Any reasonable person looking at the Zapruder film can see that they were hit by separate shots. And that is where the most obvious evidence of conspiracy exists.

69 posted on 06/30/2007 5:10:19 PM PDT by JoeA (JoeA / The defintion of insantity is repeating an action and expecting a different result.)
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To: MississippiMan
"Third, a mediocre-at-best president became an idealized martyr."

Yes, but he was a liberal, so he would have been cannonized anyway.

70 posted on 06/30/2007 5:11:44 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: ReignOfError

Well much is made that it cost “$12” or whatever. Not a “quality” weapon by any means. I hate to say it, but Mrs. Kennedy probably said it best “A Shitty Little Communist”.


71 posted on 06/30/2007 5:12:46 PM PDT by Freedom4US
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To: Names Ash Housewares

actually, its on right now


72 posted on 06/30/2007 5:13:41 PM PDT by jdub
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To: ladyinred; Mr. K
Okay, I am among those who do not believe the Warren Commission findings! I never have, I never will.

I’m with you... one look at the Zapruder film and it is obvious the head shot cam from right front, and no one will convince me otherwise.

Never will ... no one will convince me ... well, thanks for flying that flag up front. It spares the rest of us the effort of trying to present actual evidence to the proverbial brick wall. Have a nice day.

73 posted on 06/30/2007 5:15:09 PM PDT by ReignOfError (`)
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To: DCBurgess58
Oswald was NOT an expert marskman. He qualified at the bottom of the rankings in the Marines.
74 posted on 06/30/2007 5:16:06 PM PDT by JoeA (JoeA / The defintion of insantity is repeating an action and expecting a different result.)
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To: 1066AD

if someone can explain why his head exploded backwards, I might believe that Oswald acted alone.


75 posted on 06/30/2007 5:16:10 PM PDT by jdub
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To: muawiyah

while running away at the same time. /Dahl


76 posted on 06/30/2007 5:16:43 PM PDT by NonValueAdded (Brian J. Marotta, 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub, (1948-2007) Rest In Peace, our FRiend)
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To: DCBurgess58

....And the weapon was not perfectly sighted. When the FBI began its testing of the weapon for the Warren Commission in early 1964, none of their shooters could hit the target, until they adjusted the sights on the rifle.


77 posted on 06/30/2007 5:18:10 PM PDT by JoeA (JoeA / The defintion of insantity is repeating an action and expecting a different result.)
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To: 1066AD
It has been done on three separate occasions on film by non-Italians.
78 posted on 06/30/2007 5:19:03 PM PDT by mad_as_he$$ (We stand on the bridge and no one may pass. We go into the dark places....)
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To: Hazwaste

The Italians actually fired their rifles? I heard they dropped them like the French. I seem to recall a historic conversation between Churchill and Von Ribbentrop where Von Ribbentrop commented to Churchill; “If war should come the Italians will be on our side.” Churchill replied;”We had them in the last war and its only fair that you should have them the next time.” The Italians used the same rifles in WWII as they used in WWI. The carbine that Oswald used was a factory cut down of the Italian Carcano (Manlicher style) bolt action rifle. I remember seeing them in Woolworth for $9.99 - $14.99 around 1960. I bought one, fired it 3 times and became terrified. Too loud, and if you couldn’t hit a deer with the bullet you could burn his tail with the ring of flame that came out of the barrel. Oswald must have had a lot of practice with that rifle. In the early 60’s you could have bought a Brit 303 No 4 rifle or a No.5 Mark I carbine for a couple of bucks more. Larger magazine and smoother action. I wonder what Oswald was thinking when he chose a Carcano carbine with a 6.5mm round? He had to be a super marksman. The SOB cost me my weekend pass too.


79 posted on 06/30/2007 5:23:21 PM PDT by Bringbackthedraft (Impeach Hillary 08')
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To: 1066AD
...But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 second...

Illustrates the difference between Italians and Marines (Oswald).

80 posted on 06/30/2007 5:23:57 PM PDT by FReepaholic (If Cho had a nuclear weapon instead of guns, would he have used it?)
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To: JoeA

I’m a reasonable person. From the Zapruder film shows them getting hit at nearly the same time (since they are emerging from behind the road sign, exact point of impact isn’t possible to determine) by the same bullet.

Therefore your hypothesis holds no water.


81 posted on 06/30/2007 5:27:04 PM PDT by REDWOOD99
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To: 1066AD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACT0aKWEAow

FACT: It’s easy and can be done with almost no prior experience.

FACT: Oswald qualified as a sharpshooter in the Marines.

My opinion: A Boy Scout can fire that many shots in that amount of time with the same size target and range. Only the Boy Scout wouldn’t miss on the first shot. Where the issue starts is it’s impossible to recreate an exact shot and have a bullet richochet or break apart EXACTLY like another bullet.


82 posted on 06/30/2007 5:32:32 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

I think the argument is the time and accuracy. Oswald was not a “crack shot” sniper. The first shot misses, the second two hit their mark, farther down range and with better accuracy? This, I believe is where the line of questions should go. IMO of course.


83 posted on 06/30/2007 5:33:37 PM PDT by IllumiNaughtyByNature (I buy gas for my SUV with the Carbon Offsets I sell on Ebay!)
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To: Mr. K
"one look at the Zapruder film and it is obvious the head shot cam from right front, and no one will convince me otherwise."

Yeah, plus Jackie scrambling out on the trunk to grab his skull? On every forensic show I have seen the bullet makes a smaller entry wound and then blows out the other side. Conolly should have had skull on him not the trunk?

84 posted on 06/30/2007 5:33:39 PM PDT by blasater1960 (Rehavam Zeevi- HaShem Yikom Damo)
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To: 1066AD
Nearly seven out of 10 Americans believe that Kennedy was murdered as a result of a plot. Depending on which theory they back, the participants supposedly included any or all of the CIA, the Mafia, the Cubans, the FBI chief J Edgar Hoover, the military-industrial complex and Vice-President Lyndon B Johnson.

There they go again! Leaving out Ron Paul!

:o)

85 posted on 06/30/2007 5:35:24 PM PDT by IllumiNaughtyByNature (I buy gas for my SUV with the Carbon Offsets I sell on Ebay!)
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To: 1066AD
I could easily aim, fire, reload, aim, fire, reload, aim, fire, in the time required.

Oswald had the same training that I have had.

I suspect that most folks who are into this conspiracy stuff just don't want to admit that their demi-god Kennedy was killed by a loser with a cheap rifle.

Staggering, but true. A loser with a cheap rifle changed history.

86 posted on 06/30/2007 5:38:03 PM PDT by LibKill (Bush betrayed conservatives on Immigration. NO support for Bush.)
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To: 1066AD

Oswald’s Rifle:
6.5 x 52 mm Italian Mannlicher-Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle with a six-round magazine
Serial number C2766
Western Cartridge Co. ammunition with a 160 grain (10.37 g) round nose bullet
Side-mounted Ordnance Optics 4 x 18 telescopic sight


87 posted on 06/30/2007 5:39:02 PM PDT by Garvin (Semper Fi!)
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To: 1066AD

That particular rifle - the 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano - has a fairly stiff bolt and a badly placed bolt handle which limits its ability to be used in rapid fire


88 posted on 06/30/2007 5:42:14 PM PDT by USMCVet
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To: leadpenny

You have not a single fact for your childish accusation. LBJ was riding in the motorcade. I don’t think his arms were long enough to reach up to the sixth floor.

Now if you’re even remotely serious, explain just how the assassination happened. Where were the shooters, how many shots, what were the trajectories and which wounds were caused by which bullet.

FACT: You can’t do it. All you have is worthless accusations.


89 posted on 06/30/2007 5:43:00 PM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (NRA - Hunter '08)
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To: 1066AD

Italians take four hour lunches. Is anyone suprised they can’t do anything fast?


90 posted on 06/30/2007 5:45:50 PM PDT by Larry Lucido (Duncan Hunter 2008)
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To: REDWOOD99
"Union testers."

Yeah, so Government workers are less efficient, and Union workers are even more than less efficient.

Why don't we let you prove that the Warren Commission was right about Oswald's capacity to fire three shots in 19 seconds.

Then we'll all know the truth.

91 posted on 06/30/2007 5:46:34 PM PDT by Radix (The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race)
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To: Shooter 2.5

I don’t think there was a shooter #2 or a shooter #3.

But a shooter 2.5? Hmm, interesting....


92 posted on 06/30/2007 5:48:57 PM PDT by Larry Lucido (Duncan Hunter 2008)
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To: 1066AD
But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds -

Reminds me of the old joke:

Q. Who put the 3 bullets in Mussolini?

A. 15 Italian marksmen.

93 posted on 06/30/2007 5:49:16 PM PDT by Zman516 (socialists & muslims -- satan's useful idiots.)
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To: REDWOOD99

It is difficult to fire a rifle three times when you are trained to put up both hands after the first shot.


94 posted on 06/30/2007 5:51:36 PM PDT by U S Army EOD
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To: PetroniusMaximus

“I saw a 70 year old man fire the same number of shots in that timeframe using the same rifle”.


Accurately?


95 posted on 06/30/2007 5:52:45 PM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (THE SECOND AMENDMENT IS A MATTER OF FACT, NOT A MATTER OF OPINION)
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To: REDWOOD99

I don’t think so (not that you’re reasonable—that I don’t know). But as they emerge from the sign Connally is still holding his hat, turning to look at JFK, who has clearly been hit. Connally partially turns one way, then the other, before he reacts to the impact of the bullet. Not a simultaneous or near-simultaneous hit, as would be the case with a bullet moving at several hundred feet per second.


96 posted on 06/30/2007 5:54:51 PM PDT by JoeA (JoeA / The defintion of insantity is repeating an action and expecting a different result.)
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To: ReignOfError
The Warren Commission Report on the assassination of JFK was an abomination.

As far as I am concerned, anyone who is willing to buy that garbage, is seriously suspect when it comes to free thinking.

If Oswald even had a real part in the slaying at all, he certainly did not act alone. I believe that he was indeed a “Patsy.”

Do you prefer Gore or Hillary in 2008?

97 posted on 06/30/2007 5:55:04 PM PDT by Radix (The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race)
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To: jdub

Get you a high powered rifle and shoot a watermellon, it goes in every direction.


98 posted on 06/30/2007 5:58:38 PM PDT by U S Army EOD
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To: n230099
I heard Vincent Bugliosi last month, promoting his book.

He said that the car was going down hill at that stretch, so, Oswald just had to chamber rounds and make very minor elevation adjustments.

99 posted on 06/30/2007 5:59:44 PM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: Calvin Locke
Adjustments? At that range (less than 300 feet!) you point and shoot.
100 posted on 06/30/2007 6:04:08 PM PDT by endthematrix (a globalized and integrated world - which is coming, one way or the other. - Hillary)
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