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Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets'
The Sunday Telegraph (UK) ^ | 6/30/2007 | Tim Shipman

Posted on 06/30/2007 4:36:50 PM PDT by 1066AD

Oswald 'had no time to fire all Kennedy bullets' By Tim Shipman in Washington, Sunday Telegraph Last Updated: 12:30am BST 01/07/2007

Lee Harvey Oswald could not have acted alone in assassinating President John F Kennedy, according to a new study by Italian weapons experts of the type of rifle Oswald used in the shootings.

The new findings will encourage conspiracy theorists In fresh tests of the Mannlicher-Carcano bolt-action weapon, supervised by the Italian army, it was found to be impossible for even an accomplished marksman to fire the shots quickly enough.

The findings will fuel continuing theories that Oswald was part of a larger conspiracy to murder the 35th American president on 22 November 1963.

The official Warren Commission inquiry into the shooting concluded the following year that Oswald was a lone gunman who fired three shots with a Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle in 8.3 seconds.

But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day.

Two of the bullets hit Kennedy, with the first - the so called "magic bullet", ridiculed by conspiracy theorists - also wounding the governor of Texas, John B Connally, after it had struck the president.

In a further challenge to the official conclusions, the Italian team conducted two other tests at the former Carcano factory in Terni, north of Rome, where the murder weapon was made in 1940.

They fired bullets through two large pieces of meat, in an attempt to simulate the assumed path of the magic bullet. In their test, the bullet was deformed, unlike the first bullet in the Kennedy assassination, which remained largely intact.

The second bullet is thought to have missed its target. According to the commission, the third disintegrated when it hit Kennedy's head. The new research suggests, however, that this is incompatible with the fact that Oswald was only 80 yards away, in a book depository, when he fired. The Italian tests suggest that a bullet fired from that distance would have emerged intact from Kennedy's head, implying that the third shot must instead have come from a more distant location.

The findings will encourage conspiracy theorists who hold that Oswald could not have fired three shots in time. For each shot, he would have had to push up the gun's bolt handle, pull the bolt backwards to eject the spent cartridge case and then forward to slide the next round into the chamber, before turning down the bolt handle to lock it in place.

Nearly seven out of 10 Americans believe that Kennedy was murdered as a result of a plot. Depending on which theory they back, the participants supposedly included any or all of the CIA, the Mafia, the Cubans, the FBI chief J Edgar Hoover, the military-industrial complex and Vice-President Lyndon B Johnson.

It is the second challenge in two months to the view of the Warren Commission that Oswald acted alone. In May, researchers at Texas A&M University argued that the ballistics evidence used to rule out a second gunman had been misinterpreted.

The findings will be a frustration to Vincent Bugliosi, the author of a 1,600-page book, also published in May, which claimed to put to rest all the conspiracy theories of the past 44 years.

The Italian findings will be hotly contested by those who believe that Oswald was a lone gunman - not least because they contradict firing tests previously conducted, using Oswald's actual rifle, by the FBI and the US Marines, and another study by Washington police marksmen using an identical gun.

Oswald would only have needed to reload the weapon twice in the eight seconds to get off all three shots, since the time was measured only from the moment he fired the first shot. The FBI concluded that a marksman could have fired a shot at least every 2.3 seconds.

In his book, Mr Bugliosi details how after just two or three minutes' practice with the gun in 1979, three police marksmen aiming at three targets representing Kennedy at the same distance from Oswald, got away three shots in less than eight seconds.

One marksman hit the targets twice and missed the third shot by an inch. A second shooter scored a "kill" with his second shot.

Mr Bugliosi recounts three separate ballistics tests that found that the magic bullet could have wounded Kennedy and Connally and emerged in similar condition to the real bullet. But that is unlikely to stop the Italian research fuelling another generation of conspiracy writers.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: banglist; conspiracy; grassyknoll; grassyknollsociety; jfk; jfkassassination; magicbullet; notthisshitagain; oswald; tinfoil
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Were the bullets & load the same as used by Oswald ?

Some bolt actions are very fast indeed, I don't know about this one.

1 posted on 06/30/2007 4:36:56 PM PDT by 1066AD
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To: 1066AD

“The official Warren Commission inquiry into the shooting concluded the following year that Oswald was a lone gunman who fired three shots with a Carcano M91/38 bolt-action rifle in 8.3 seconds.

But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds”

Union testers.


2 posted on 06/30/2007 4:41:25 PM PDT by REDWOOD99
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To: everyone

I’m no expert on the JFK assassination, nor do I plan to become one. But for those who are: Why are some people so easily impressed by arguments, and even evidence, that something “could not have happened”? Such a claim doesn’t seem all that persuasive to me.


3 posted on 06/30/2007 4:41:37 PM PDT by California Patriot ("That's not Charley the Tuna out there. It's Jaws." -- Richard Nixon)
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To: 1066AD
excuse me but, it is 2007, isn't it?
4 posted on 06/30/2007 4:42:17 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (Thank you St. Jude.)
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To: 1066AD

This is BS.

I saw a 70 year old man fire the same number of shots in that timeframe using the same rifle.


5 posted on 06/30/2007 4:42:34 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: 1066AD
they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds

Oswald didn't have to do that. The first one would have already been chambered. So it would have been shoot 3, load 2.

6 posted on 06/30/2007 4:43:03 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: 1066AD
It's a trick question/answer deal. Almost a stereotypical joke ~ if you get my drift.

The Italian Army could not load and fire 3 rounds in 19 seconds. Lee Harvey Oswald made sure that his first round was already loaded before he started the clock ticking.

That meant he had only to fire 3 rounds and load 2 rounds. The Italians did not take that precaution and had to fire 3 rounds AND load 3 rounds.

7 posted on 06/30/2007 4:43:31 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: REDWOOD99

Pretty sure there has been more then one recreation of the shots taken on discovery or history channel, maybe both.

They showed it could be done.


8 posted on 06/30/2007 4:43:35 PM PDT by Names Ash Housewares
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To: 1066AD

If anybody actually figures it out does JFK come back to life ???


9 posted on 06/30/2007 4:44:42 PM PDT by Obie Wan (If)
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To: 1066AD
He played both sides of the law. It’s suprising in retrospect that they waited until he was elected to finally do it.
10 posted on 06/30/2007 4:44:56 PM PDT by kinoxi
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To: 1066AD

I saw a docu on the History channel or Discovery where the acual rifle was used and all participants got off the three rounds in less than eight seconds.

Oswald took a full eight.

This guy can do all the studies he wants, he’s still full of crap.


11 posted on 06/30/2007 4:45:12 PM PDT by HEY4QDEMS (Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.)
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To: 1066AD
Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket
12 posted on 06/30/2007 4:45:50 PM PDT by jazusamo (DefendOurMarines.com)
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To: 1066AD

Okay, I am among those who do not believe the Warren Commission findings! I never have, I never will.


13 posted on 06/30/2007 4:46:01 PM PDT by ladyinred
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To: the invisib1e hand
excuse me but, it is 2007, isn't it?

Yes, and about time that the Warren Commission Cover-up got permanently blown out of the water.

14 posted on 06/30/2007 4:46:21 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: 1066AD

“But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds”

Maybe instead of using a team they should have just used one guy.


15 posted on 06/30/2007 4:47:38 PM PDT by Hazwaste (Now with added lemony freshness!)
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To: 1066AD; All
The History Channel is airing “ The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Conspiracy” at 5 pm Pacific Time...just a few minutes from now.
If you have never seen this, I highly recommend it.
16 posted on 06/30/2007 4:47:42 PM PDT by scott says
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To: 1066AD
But when the Italian team test-fired the identical model of gun, they were unable to load and fire three shots in less than 19 seconds - suggesting that a second gunman must have been present in Dealey Plaza, central Dallas, that day.

This is why conspiracy nuts are called nuts. They have been banging this drum for years and it is BS. I can finger feed a bolt action and fire three rounds accurately in 9 seconds.

17 posted on 06/30/2007 4:47:47 PM PDT by bad company (the sky is falling because it was built with cheap mexican labor.)
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To: the invisib1e hand

Are you saying the perpetrators may have left the scene by now?


18 posted on 06/30/2007 4:48:04 PM PDT by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire, but I swear I didn't see it in my rear view mirror.)
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To: REDWOOD99
"Union testers"

LOL!

I think 3 shots could easily be done in 8.3 seconds. It's the returning to aimpoint 3 times and hitting a moving target that would be the challenge.

19 posted on 06/30/2007 4:48:23 PM PDT by n230099 ("A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud)
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To: HEY4QDEMS; 1066AD
"I saw a docu on the History channel or Discovery where the acual rifle was used and all participants got off the three rounds in less than eight seconds."

And then you woke up and found out that you had wet the bed.

20 posted on 06/30/2007 4:48:38 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: jazusamo
can't believe it took twelve posts for him to show up.
21 posted on 06/30/2007 4:49:40 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (Thank you St. Jude.)
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To: 1066AD

This test has been replicated 100 times. Many have been able to duplicate Oswald’s apparent fete.


22 posted on 06/30/2007 4:50:21 PM PDT by PackerBoy (Just my opinion ....)
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To: BipolarBob
"Are you saying the perpetrators may have left the scene by now?"

One of them recently died and had an elaborate state funeral.

23 posted on 06/30/2007 4:50:35 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: PAR35
shoot, drop rifle, load, shoot, drop rifle, load shoot.
yep..18 seconds.
24 posted on 06/30/2007 4:51:32 PM PDT by stylin19a (Since bad golf shots come in groups of 3, a 4th bad shot is the start of the next group of 3)
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To: 1066AD
Seen it done. Numerous times. Case Closed. I won’t be buying the new book or the new movie.
25 posted on 06/30/2007 4:52:03 PM PDT by BallyBill (Serial Hit-N-Run poster)
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To: Shooter 2.5
Stand by, we've just got data from some sissy Eurotrash who probably never held a gun in their life saying that Oswald didn't have time to cycle the bolt twice in eight-plus seconds.

I bet they needed counseling after a live firearm was brought into their presence. I can only wonder how the Italian testers would have scored on my patented KG9 Kid 'Flinch-O-Meter' that I typically use at the range to see how competent a shooter the subject is.

Thanks also to the sensationalist UK Sunday Telegraph for bringing up this nonsense yet again.

26 posted on 06/30/2007 4:52:17 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: editor-surveyor

Yeah OK


27 posted on 06/30/2007 4:52:32 PM PDT by HEY4QDEMS (Sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.)
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To: 1066AD

Explains a lot about WWII I guess.


28 posted on 06/30/2007 4:52:38 PM PDT by strings6459
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To: stylin19a

lol.


29 posted on 06/30/2007 4:52:38 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: muawiyah

Loading an extra round doesn’t account for the difference between 8.3 and 19. Having said that I thought somewhere along the line I had seen video of someone demonstrate how Oswald could have done it within the time limit.


30 posted on 06/30/2007 4:52:54 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: the invisib1e hand
...are these the same guys that announced a few threads back that, by george, Aliens had crashed in Roswell after all???
31 posted on 06/30/2007 4:53:04 PM PDT by Frobenius
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To: ladyinred

I’m with you... one look at the Zapruder film and it is obvious the head shot cam from right front, and no one will convince me otherwise.

Oh, and I have a degree in Physics.

The Zapruder film shows more than 3 shots if you know what to look for.

Plus the one that missed and hit a man under the overpass.

Plus the one that missed everyone and hit a curb (they actually removed the portion of the curb)


32 posted on 06/30/2007 4:53:17 PM PDT by Mr. K (Some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help)
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To: ladyinred

“Okay, I am among those who do not believe the Warren Commission findings! I never have, I never will.”

There’s an excellent show that comes around on the History Channel. Check it out and you might look at some of the evidence differently.

And I hope you’re feeling well today!


33 posted on 06/30/2007 4:53:57 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PackerBoy
"Many have been able to duplicate Oswald’s apparent fete."

Where did they find the limo in a parade to do it?

34 posted on 06/30/2007 4:54:29 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: editor-surveyor

Dare I ask? Dare I? Ah, WTF? Who, pray tell, would that be?


35 posted on 06/30/2007 4:54:39 PM PDT by REDWOOD99
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To: the invisib1e hand

Yeah...Someone mentioned last night it was a Friday night with a full moon, looks like it carried over to today.

The Roswell story earlier today and now this.


36 posted on 06/30/2007 4:55:47 PM PDT by jazusamo (DefendOurMarines.com)
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To: leadpenny

BONG!


37 posted on 06/30/2007 4:55:57 PM PDT by shove_it (old Old Guardsman)
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To: 1066AD

Mark Furman, in a book published sometime last year, presents
a detailed an analysis of the facts and presents a reasonable explanation of the evidence. He makes a very convincing case that Oswald acted alone.


38 posted on 06/30/2007 4:56:12 PM PDT by foxfield
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To: stylin19a

“shoot, drop rifle, load, shoot, drop rifle, load shoot.
yep..18 seconds.”

It was a bolt action rifle not a musket.


39 posted on 06/30/2007 4:56:27 PM PDT by REDWOOD99
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To: California Patriot

No human could’ve possibly fired 3 shots in that amount of time so clearly Oswald was a robot! < /s >


40 posted on 06/30/2007 4:57:01 PM PDT by weegee (If the Fairness Doctrine is imposed on USA who will CNN news get to read the conservative rebuttal)
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To: jazusamo

hahaha I was waiting for that pic ..THANX...YAWNNNNNNNNNNN here we go again .


41 posted on 06/30/2007 4:57:17 PM PDT by sonic109
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To: PetroniusMaximus
"There’s an excellent show that comes around on the History Channel. Check it out and you might look at some of the evidence differently."

Its coming on in 5 minutes on the History Channel....check it out.
42 posted on 06/30/2007 4:57:42 PM PDT by scott says
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To: 1066AD

Maybe it’s a good idea to chamber the first round well before you need so you only need to cycle the bolt twice. Duh!


43 posted on 06/30/2007 4:58:10 PM PDT by Lx (Do you like it, do you like it. Scott? I call it Mr. and Mrs. Tennerman chili.)
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To: Hazwaste

Maybe they handed the rifle off to one another...


44 posted on 06/30/2007 4:58:40 PM PDT by weegee (If the Fairness Doctrine is imposed on USA who will CNN news get to read the conservative rebuttal)
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To: Obie Wan

He WILL return from his island hideout where he has sojourned with Martin Luther King and Elvis.


45 posted on 06/30/2007 4:58:59 PM PDT by Young Werther ( and Julius Ceasar said, "quae cum ita sunt." (or since these things are so!))
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To: shove_it; leadpenny
Yes, bring him forth as well.

The real story here is: "Italian 'rifle experts' unable to load and fire three rounds in nineteen seconds."

46 posted on 06/30/2007 4:59:36 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: 1066AD

100% Bull


47 posted on 06/30/2007 4:59:38 PM PDT by Psycho_Bunny (The danger - the Tempest - forever is o'er.)
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To: bad company
The test was completely flawed. First you used the Italian army as your testing agent. Second Oswald was a Marine. (I’m sure the Marines aren’t proud of the fact)
48 posted on 06/30/2007 5:00:06 PM PDT by Recon Dad (Marine Spec Ops Dad)
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To: scott says

I will have check and it is being repeated later, I recorded some Discovry HD shows then.

I will check back for a review.


49 posted on 06/30/2007 5:00:12 PM PDT by razorback-bert (Posted by Time's Man of the Year)
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To: jazusamo

Don’t forget the moon worshipping cult blowing up things in the UK.


50 posted on 06/30/2007 5:00:16 PM PDT by weegee (If the Fairness Doctrine is imposed on USA who will CNN news get to read the conservative rebuttal)
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