Posted on 07/08/2007 8:38:21 AM PDT by doesnt suffer fools gladly
Pope Angers Jews, Liberals With Rite
Conservatives Rejoice as Pontiff Revives Old Latin Mass By NICOLE WINFIELD,AP
VATICAN CITY (July 7) - Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday removed restrictions on celebrating the old Latin Mass, reviving a rite that was all but swept away by the liberalizing reforms of the Second Vatican Council.
The decision, a victory for traditional, conservative Roman Catholics, came over the objections of liberal-minded Catholics and angered Jews because the Tridentine Mass contains a prayer for their conversion.
Benedict, who stressed that he was not negating Vatican II, issued a document authorizing parish priests to celebrate the Tridentine rite if a "stable group of faithful" requests it. Currently, the local bishop must approve such requests - an obstacle that supporters of the rite say has greatly limited its availability.
"What earlier generations held as sacred remains sacred and great for us, too," Benedict wrote.
The document upset Jews, since the Tridentine rite contains a prayer on Good Friday of Easter Week calling for their conversion. The Anti-Defamation League called the move a "body blow to Catholic-Jewish relations," the Jewish news agency JTA reported.
The Simon Wiesenthal Center urged Benedict to publicly point out that such phrases "are now entirely contrary to the teaching of the church."
In reviving the rite, Benedict was reaching out to the followers of an excommunicated ultratraditionalist, the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, who split with the Vatican over Vatican II, particularly the introduction of the New Mass celebrated in the vernacular.
The Vatican excommunicated Lefebvre in 1988 after he consecrated four bishops without Rome's consent. The bishops were excommunicated as well.
Benedict has been eager to reconcile with Lefebvre's group, the Society of St. Pius X, which has demanded freer use of the old Mass as a precondition for normalizing relations. The other precondition is the removal of the excommunication decrees. The Vatican did not address the excommunication issue Saturday and there was no indication if or when it would.
The current head of the society, Bishop Bernard Fellay, welcomed Benedict's document in a statement. He said he hoped "that the favorable climate established by the new dispositions of the Holy See" would eventually allow other doctrinal disputes that emerged from Vatican II to be discussed, including ecumenism, religious liberty and the sharing of power with bishops.
The old rite differs significantly from the New Mass. In addition to the Latin, the prayers and readings are different, and the priest faces the altar, to be seen as leading the faithful in prayer.
Benedict, a conservative theologian, has made no secret of his affinity for the Tridentine rite and has long said the faithful should have greater access to it. But more liberal Catholics have suggested that in liberalizing the use of the rite, Benedict was sending a strong message that Vatican II was not the "break from the past" that some view it as being.
In addition to Jewish concerns, bishops in France and liberal-minded clergy and faithful elsewhere expressed concerns that allowing freer use of the Tridentine liturgy would imply a negation of Vatican II and create divisions in parishes since two different liturgies would be celebrated.
Benedict said those fears were "unfounded" in a letter to bishops accompanying the Latin text.
He said the New Mass remained the "normal" form of Mass while the Tridentine version was an "extraordinary" one that would probably only be sought by a few Catholics.
The document "doesn't impose any return to the past, it doesn't mean any weakening of the authority of the council nor the authority and responsibility of bishops," Vatican spokesman Rev. Federico Lombardi said.
However, Cardinal Jean-Pierre Ricard, the head of the French bishops' conference, warned that the move will create divisions. "There will be resistance from both sides," he told Le Monde.
The liberal lay church group We Are Church said that the move represented a step back from Vatican II and could set an even more conservative direction for the church. It warned of a "new split within many parishes, diocese and finally the entire Roman Catholic Church."
"It is to be feared that while it appears to only be about the old Mass, in reality it is an attempt to set the Catholic Church on a new old course," the group said.
Ricard, speaking on France-Info radio Saturday, said the move does not mean the entire church is becoming more fundamentalist. "Just because you have in a family a cousin who is a bit different, whom you tolerate and accept, doesn't mean that the whole family adopts his positions or his way of life," he said.
The document was welcomed by traditional Catholics who remained in good standing with Rome but simply preferred the Tridentine liturgy and have long complained that bishops had been stingy in allowing it, said Michael Dunnigan, chairman of Una Voce America, the largest lay organization in the United States dedicated to promoting wider access to the traditional Mass.
"The traditional Mass is a true a gem of the church's heritage, and the Holy Father has taken the most important step toward making it available to many more of the faithful," he said.
The satan story is pretty funny actually. I might try that some time.
As for Who the Rock is, that is also clear. Jesus is the Rock, the foundation of His community or congregation. That is another one of the places the catholic religion has gone astray ....following a man rather than Jesus.
"That the church is the body of Christ, and that there is only one body." And that one body does not include the catholic religion.
The 'Protestant Inquisitions', no such thing....denial again. Defending the RCC will not hold when you stand at Christ' judgment seat. There have been those who have called themselves 'christians' outside the catholic religion that have committed evil in the name of Christ as the RCC did but that is further proof neither belong to Christ. Defend Christ and His love not the evil of catholic religion that is drunk with the blood of the saints and is leading hundreds of millions to eternal separation from God.
You will know them by their fruit. The things done by and taught by the catholic religion is evidence Christ is not the Head ...not even part of it. How is it you can not see it?
Luke 6:43 "For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit.
Religious Jews do not seek converts. We believe that everyone can achieve salvation through righteousness.
Present tense?!
Wait a sec... you may be right. Those weekly collections, and often *second* collections - why would an institution as wealthy as the Catholic Church need to turn the pockets of the laity inside-out? To finance the "War against the Jews", of course. It's all so clear now... (rolls eyes).
So here is the text.. Thank you Heatseeker
According to this source, which seems fairly authoritative, the anti-Jewish stuff was removed:
Letter on 1962 Missal Not Anti-Semitic
Document to Be Released Saturday
VATICAN CITY, JULY 6, 2007 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI's apostolic letter concerning the Roman Missal promulgated by John XXIII in 1962, will not reinstate a prayer for the conversion of "perfidious Jews."
The Vatican press office announced today the Pope's letter issued "motu proprio," on his own initiative, is titled "Summorum Pontificum," and will be released Saturday at noon, accompanied by an explanatory letter.
Several media reports erroneously contend that the letter could in effect reinstate a prayer offensive to Jews from the Good Friday liturgy of the Tridentine Mass, which dates back to 1570. The prayer stated: "Oremus et pro perfidies Judaeis" (Let us pray for the perfidious Jews).
On the first Good Friday after his election to the papacy in 1959, Pope John XXIII eliminated the adjective "perfidious" from the prayer. Since then the expression "Let us pray for the Jews" has been used.
That same year, he also eliminated from the rite of baptism the phrase used for Jewish catechumens: "Horresce Jusaicam perfidiam, respue Hebraicam superstitionem" (Disavow Jewish unbelieving, deny Hebrew superstition).
Also eliminated were similar formulas for those converting from idolatry, Islam or a heretical sect.
The 1962 missal was promulgated with an apostolic letter issued "motu proprio" by John XXIII "Rubricarum Instructum." The missal does not make reference to "perfidious Jews."
On Good Friday in 1963, John XXIII underlined the importance of this decision when the old formulation of the prayer for the Jews was read. The Pope interrupted the liturgy and asked that that the liturgical invocations begin again from the beginning, following the new text.
The Roman Missal adopted by Pope Paul VI in 1969, and put into effect in 1970, reformulated the prayer. It reads: "Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant.
"Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your Church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption."
I think you are trying, but this statement creates more cloudiness than clearity.
Judiasm accepts converts, but generally it don't seek them. This is a result of 1800 years of persecution and the fact that new "converts" to Judaism might just be folks on a mission (pretenders).
To convert to Christianity takes but a moment, but to Convert to Judaism takes more than a year.
Its not for the feint of heart, not because of some secret rite, but because folks expect you to learn a whole pile of stuff and really know what you are getting yourself into before you are accepted as a Jew. The Rabbi is supposed to by tradition reject the person trying to convert 3 times!
So, Judaism doesn't intend to grow by conversion. This wasn't always so, during the Roman Empire Jews were the Evangelicals of the time, growing to 10% of the entire Empire's population before the revolts in Judea.
Now as far as righteousness being a sufficient path to "salvation." I never heard it put that way in Temple (Reform Jewish teaching) and I believe you would have to get to like the Humanist Jewish sect to hear something said that way.. Most people would misunderstand what you posted. Perhaps you would want to word that differently to explain it better.
"Righteousness" = the 7 Noahide Laws
This is the basis of humanitarian law.
BTW: "Reform Jewish teaching"=whatever is the popular liberal trend.
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Thank you for setting the record straight regarding the history of the Church vis-a-vis the Jews, and especially for your comments on Genm. Franco. I trust in God that someday he will be hailed as the hero he was rather than damned for the tyrant he was not.
Brain disengaged, fingers spewing crap.
Its popular around here to beat up on Reform Jews, but its wrong headed and ultimately self-defeating. As the World prays for Reform Islam, dumping on Reform Jews is just plain lame. Read the current Reform Platform before you say anything more, because you are dealing out of ignorance and prejudice, not clear reasoning.
First, know about what you are talking about.
Second, endeavor to be clear and not assume that folks know what you are talking about.
The Noahide Laws are derived and not part of Torah. Nevertheless, many would hold that for non-Jews, they are a sufficient guideline. But, obviously, one must get past the meaning of the first item in this list and whether Christianity or Islam meet this requirement. If you accept that they do, then most of the rest is easier to accomplish.
And, as Buddhists do not worship idols, are they meeting this requirement? or is it deeper, not doing something is not the same as accepting God which Buddhists do not.
This just becomes so much wall-paper if you do not explain more clearly.
I hope so, too, but I’m not optimistic.
Franco was not a very charismatic person, and his biggest problem was that he was surrounded by some very hardline, self-serving unpleasant folk. Years ago, a liberal Spaniard told me that “we all knew that Franco had to get rid of the Communists, but he didn’t know when to stop.” He was surrounded by people who made him seem considerably harsher than he was.
Communism, unfortunately, has to be repressed harshly. Spain had time and again mercifully let the Communists off the hook, and they took that as a sign that they could do whatever they wanted. Franco actually had a lot of support when he cracked down on them after the war, but many of his emergency policies went on too long and unfortunately that tainted the entire history of his very valuable period of leadership.
One thing that liberals never discuss is how badly we treated Spain and Franco after WWII. Even the Germans got more money and aid. Franco could have made things much harder for the Allies but not remaining neutral and doing things like forbidding overflights, refueling, etc. He didn’t, in great part because he hated Hitler and was the only European ruler to ever make Hitler back down (google Franco meeting on train Hitler).
Hitler’s attack on Guernica, which he had not asked Franco about, was the final straw. Franco was an anti-Communist traditionalist and nationalist, not a Nazi. But we were not generous with Spain after the war, and Truman (IIRC from my reading) had to figure out ingenious ways of getting help to Spain, which was totally impoverished and isolated.
Let us keep our facts and our inferences straight. You claim it “takes but a moment” to convert to Christianity. That may be true of certain religions but it is most certainly not true if one is referring to Catholicism.
Conversion to Catholicism requires many hours of study and it can take as long as a year to complete. Kindly refer to the following for an exceptionally brief insight into what is involved:
“The process is described in a 44-page document called the Rite of Christian Initiation.”
I was raised a Reform Jew and I probably know more about Reform Judaism and its history than most Temple members including Reform Rabbis.
Please study history before you spew off. Orthodox Jews were not rioting, committing acts of terror and beheading people worldwide in the name of Judaism before "Reform Judaism" came on the scene. Reform Judaism came on the scene after the French Revolution in order to assimilate and blend in with the gentiles, hoping that this would eradicate anti-Semitism. It did not.
"Reform" did nothing to improve Judaism, did not "reform" any part of Judaic teaching and doctrine, and all it did was make Jews more ignorant of their own religion.
We would like a "Reform Islam" that is to radical Islam what Evangelical Christianity is to the Church Inquisition.
Have studied the history. And, you haven't because, the original terrorists were not Muslims but Jews. The pattern for defeating a numerically superior enemy is part of our history and why the books of the Maccabees are not in the Tanakh. The ultimate failure of the Zealots and the price of their evil was the loss of the 2nd Temple. Yet, there would be no Jews without them. God calls us each to do our part, and it is not clear to any of us what the whole picture shows.
But, the challenge of Greek Philosophy and Reason are what Reform Judaism are about. History and Science tear at the foundations of the Bible, but only for literalistists. The tide against the Bible has been turned, as the deeper truths appear to explain this seemingly contradictory work. But, just like Global Warming cannot sustain itself without threats and denigration of skeptics against science and the scientific method, blind faith is insufficient for Jews to live and prosper in the world.
America is built on the same foundation as Reform Judaism, and the Reform movement is still a source of light in the world despite how it had drifted into error and relativism. Catholicism did the same with the same devastating results.
But, there are many many who drift around in the Brit of Fate and many more who have drifted off entirely. This is a snapshot in time. And, the snapshot you would take today, still is not all it could be, but Temple is flowering back into a place of Faith and this while still accepting what history, science and philosophy give us rather than needing to reject it.
There are still stacks of Liberals in the Reform movement, and many are lost in this, rather than faith in God.
But, there is one fact that the Orthodox can never overcome. When a Reform Jew has a child no matter who they marry, they are another Jew. And this is the Heart of it. I can think of no greater tragedy, than a father who married in the foolishness of youth, agonizing over the fact that their child must convert to be a Jew. I was confronted with this by a friend who is a Conservative, bemoaning his son's tragedy being raised as a Catholic. And me, not knowing what to say, feeling he was breaking a Commandment by not seeing that this child was educated in Torah.
Ultimately, Reform places the responsibility of faith in the hands of the individual. You may not have found your experience that nourishing. I find our Temple to be the best place, the best organization and the best community I have ever had the opportunity to belong to in my life. Yes the place is crawling with Libs but the guy who says kinds words about "Cindy" still thinks nothing of lending me his truck so I can drag flags to Honor Soldiers who have died in Iraq. The person who can't even say Ronald Reagan Highway is delighted to make sure that my daughter who is in the Marine Corps JROTC gets souvenirs from when they visited the Marine Corps Museum.
Faith in God is bigger than even politics.
Judaism and Christianity were rivals under the Roman Empire, and the Jews lost the race, in part because after 135 they raised the barriers between themselves and the gentiles, and because for Jews who wished to be assimilated, Christianity was a better option. Furthermore, Rome was not the actual ruler of most of the Christians even in the Empire. It was no accident that nearly all the bishops who attended the First Council, the one called by Constantine, were from Eastern cities. Christians were a decided minority in the Western Empire. The same was true of the Jews. Despite the age and prestige of th Roman Church, the pope of Rome played a modest role in the course of events folwwoing Constasntine’s decision to make Christianity the offical religion. The Emperor, after all, was shifting the political center from Italy to the East where the bulk of “Romans” actually lived. Many pagans, many Jews opportunistically joined the now regnant Church. The hostily of Christians was toward both pagans and Jews who chose not to convert.
Well, I only have ignorance to plead, as I really don't know one way or another. I had always been led to believe that a sincere acceptance of Christ as one's savior turns the corner. Perhaps I am wrong.
To be a Jew, you have to be born one or learn how to be one. One must practice Judaism to become a Jew and you ultimately have to be accepted by a Jewish community to become a Jew. And once you have become a Jew, it places an obligation on your children and your children's children, an obligation that has so often turned into only horror and misery.
This is not done on a whim, but I am sure one must struggle to become accepted in a Catholic community just the same. Ultimately, faith that is only skin deep is equally as fleeting. Its not about how hard it is, its about reaching to God to share in his Grace and to raise mankind from evil and despair into the light of holiness.
“The satan story is pretty funny actually. I might try that some time.”
I don’t know how anyone could do that with a straight face.
Especially if they ask you to repeat it 2 or 3 times.
However Abe Foxman offends me greatly, and I ask him to please STFU.
The Catholic Church and Catholics in general have no monopoly on piety or sin. The punishment of Catholics at the hands of Protestants is well documented. I have walked through the ruins and mass grave sites in over a dozen northern European countries where the victims of Protestant purges are buried. The "Protestant Inquisition" is a term applied specifically to the severities of John Calvin in Geneva and Queen Elizabeth I in England during the 1500s. Although not technically part of the Protestant Inquisition, please explain the wide scale atrocities committed by Cromwell's forces against the Catholic populations of England, Scotland, and Ireland in the Wars of the Three Kingdoms (1639 - 1651). Please then explain the atrocities committed by the Protestant Swedish armies in Bavaria in the 30 Years War (1618 - 1648).
" As for Who the Rock is, that is also clear. Jesus is the Rock, the foundation of His community or congregation. That is another one of the places the catholic religion has gone astray ....following a man rather than Jesus."
Simon "Peter" was the rock. Jesus was making a pun. Peter was a nick name from the Greek "petros" meaning rock.
"That the church is the body of Christ, and that there is only one body." And that one body does not include the catholic religion."
The word "catholic" merely means universal. It defined by a common belief in God, and His Son, Jesus.
"The 'Protestant Inquisitions', no such thing....denial again. Defending the RCC will not hold when you stand at Christ' judgment seat."
Neither of us is here to judge, but to be judged..
"There have been those who have called themselves 'christians' outside the catholic religion that have committed evil in the name of Christ as the RCC did but that is further proof neither belong to Christ."
No argument from me here.
"Defend Christ and His love not the evil of catholic religion that is drunk with the blood of the saints and is leading hundreds of millions to eternal separation from God."
The world is better with the Church than it would be without it.
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