Posted on 08/31/2007 11:21:11 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
Defense Focus: Diesel sub wonder weapons
Published: Aug. 31, 2007 at 11:10 AM By MARTIN SIEFF UPI Senior News Analyst
WASHINGTON, Aug. 31 (UPI) -- The diesel submarine may be the leading "Cinderella weapon" of the 21st century. It gets no respect in the United States or Russia. But China, India, France, Germany and Israel are all betting on it big time.
The diesel submarine is certainly not a sexy new technology like anti-ballistic missiles, global positioning satellites or lasers. It has been around as long as the submarine itself (British Adm. Lord John "Jackie" Fisher's bizarre experiment in giant steam-powered submarines, the notorious "K" boats of World War I, never got very far).
Diesel submarine technology was perfected more than 60 years ago in the great ocean-worthy U.S. Navy fleet of subs in World War II and in the German Type XXII and XXIII U-boats that became operational towards the end of the war.
However, the development of nuclear submarines, first by the U.S. Navy in the 1950s and then by the Soviet Union, appeared to make the diesel sub as obsolete as the bow and arrow became after the mass production of firearms. Adm. Hyman Rickover, the feisty father of America's nuclear navy, hated them like poison. So did his successor admirals.
Thanks to their procurement policies, there is not a single shipyard left in the entire United States that makes them anymore. But in other major nations, the old diesel sub is making a remarkable comeback.
Israel has already deployed three German-built Dolphin diesel submarines to carry nuclear-armed cruise missiles to provide it with a survivable second-strike capability to deter Iran or other nations from the temptation of carrying out a pre-emptive first strike with nuclear weapons, and it has ordered at least two more -- both also from Germany.
France is doing good business building its Scorpion submarines for export too, and India is planning to deploy Scorpions with cruise missiles as a deterrent against Pakistan similar to the Israeli concept.
But the biggest enthusiast for diesel subs is China, which is building its own: In 2006 it built 14 of them to one U.S. -- nuclear-powered -- new submarine.
China is building a mixed, or balanced, submarine fleet. It has also invested in bigger nuclear-powered strategic submarines to carry a survivable second-strike ballistic missile deterrent primarily aimed at the United States. But it is pouring major resources into its conventional submarine fleet as well. Why?
Diesel subs certainly do not have the limitless range and endurance for long-term operational deployment that nuclear subs do. But in conventional war, they have a lot of advantages as well.
They can operate far more easily in littoral or offshore, shallow waters, and being much smaller than nuclear submarines gives them a potentially huge operational advantage in key enclosed potential combat regions like the eastern Mediterranean Sea, the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf.
Also, China's procurement policies and its overwhelming concentration of force in its southeast coastal region leaves no doubt that Chinese operational planners see their most likely conventional enemy as being the U.S. Navy and Air Force in any eventual conflict over the status of Taiwan.
In this context, having a very large conventional diesel submarine fleet makes a lot of sense. Conventional diesel subs can pose a formidable threat to nuclear aircraft carriers operating within operational range of their home ports, as the Chinese sub fleet in the western Pacific and the Taiwan Strait would be doing in such a conflict.
U.S. anti-submarine warfare, or ASW, capabilities are superb, the best in the world. But they were overwhelmingly developed to locate and destroy bigger Soviet or Russian strategic and attack subs that were nuclear powered. A lot of smaller, cheaper diesel subs operating as underwater wolf packs would stand a much better chance of overwhelming the ASW defenses of U.S. carrier battle groups than throwing just two or three nuclear attack subs against them at a time would.
For Israel and India, the calculus is a different one: Israel simply cannot afford to buy nuclear subs, and they would be too big and therefore easy to detect in the relatively shallow Mediterranean anyway.
Nor does it need big nuclear-powered platforms like the U.S. Ohio class strategic subs or the old Soviet-era Typhoons, or even the somewhat smaller new nuclear powered Russian Borei class to carry its second-strike weapons.
Israel can't afford and does not need long-range submarine-launched ICBMs anyway. Iran, Syria and its other potential enemies would all be within range of much smaller intermediate-range cruise missiles that could be launched from a conventional sub. So the Jewish state has sensibly invested in German U-boats as its main line of defense. One wonders what Grand Adm. Karl Doenitz would have thought about it all.
In 1982 the British nuclear submarine HMS Conqueror proved the conventional operational potency of the nuclear attack submarine by sinking the Argentine heavy cruiser General Belgrano during the Falklands, or Malvinas, War. Future wars, however, may see that dynamic reversed with enormous nuclear surface ships hunted by fleets of a weapon employed in both world wars that was supposed to have been superseded half a century ago: the non-nuclear diesel submarine.
VERY INTERESTING ... thought provoking ... hmmmmm
glad to rattle your cage ;0)
The German Dolphin diesel submarine can operate on batteries for 3 days from what I have heard. In 3 days that is a long distance they can cover. Anyone know exacting how far they can go in 3 days?
The US just does not have enough Nuke subs to cover the possible number of subs China can use at one time. That is a serious situation.
“The US just does not have enough Nuke subs to cover the possible number of subs China can use at one time. That is a serious situation.”
Well, i suppose if you count all the sub countermeasures of the US military though, they would probably be able to cover the risk of China’s sub fleet. As soon as far east starts to produce AC carriers, I start viewing them as an interested enemy.
I would suspect that the Diesel Subs are perfect for a nations coast guard submarine command. For deep blue long rang patrols that the Russians and Americans count on to project the MAD doctrine..........no thanks. Knee Deep navy use only IMO.
* Dolphin 5/1998
* Leviathan 1999
* Tekumah 1999
The first two (Dolphin + Leviathan) were donated by Germany, only the third (Tekumah) was purchased by Israel (Germany still paid for half of the costs). During the first Gulf War, German firms were accused of helping Iraq with her chemical weapons program, which led to protests in both Germany and Israel. To calm Israeli feelings, compensate Israel for economical losses and keep German shipyards occupied, Helmut Kohl decided to donate the two submarines.[2] The Dolphins have replaced the aging Gal class submarines which served in the Israeli navy since the late-1970’s.
On July 6, 2006, the Government of Germany decided to pay an advance to start the construction, about 170 millions euro. The two submarines will cost, overall, around 1.3 billion euros, of which one third will be paid by Germany.[1] The first one is scheduled to be completed in 2012.
is a non-nuclear (SSK) type of submarine developed and constructed by Howaldtswerke-Deutsche Werft AG (HDW), Germany for the Israeli Navy. It is based on the export-only German 209 class submarines, but heavily modified and enlarged and is thus not seen as a member of the 209 family. The Dolphin boats are considered among the most sophisticated and capable conventional submarines in the world.
Israel signed a contract with ThyssenKrupp to purchase two additional submarines from its HDW subsidiary. The two new boats will be an upgraded version of the old Dolphins, and are going to feature an Air-independent propulsion system, similar to the one used on U214 submarines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin_class_submarine
Yes, piston engines are loud... but air-independent fuel cell technology is quieter than a nuclear reactor. The French Skorpene boats will be fitted with that system.
I was thinking the same thing. Does the author know of the Virginia or the latest mods to 688 boats?
and a couple of weeks ago by some nut job.
I think you are incorrect - at least about some DB boats. The French (I think) one uses hydrogen peroxide and runs the diesels underwater.Others use liquid oxygen.
“Functioning like an RPG, meaning creating lots of expensive damage at a low cost. RPGs and anti-tank rockets have neutralized Israel’s armor, neutralized that costly advantage. Small diesel subs can wreck our “armor” of the high seas, our aircraft carriers”
Mega bump. How many BILLIONS of dollars is being pumped into the CVN Jerry Ford? From the looks of this article it’ll be cost effective for China to simply throw a dozen disel’s her way with disasterous results on our end. And then there’s the worry over PLA cruise missiles which can be manufactured for a pittance and which it seems we have no defense against!
These diesel boats are child’s play next to SeaWolf and Virginia class.
Nope.In addition to classic D/E propulsion,the new French subs use a mixture of liquid oxygen & ethanol to run a steam turbine.Almost all major AIP systems use liquid oxygen as one of the components(The air).The Swedes use a mix of liquid 02 & diesel fuel,while the German Siemens AIP uses H2-02 fuel cells.
Finally, some good news.
Well on paper they are child’s play!!!The 2 nuc subs are twice as long,weigh almost 5 times more,have a crew which is over 3 times larger & roughly carry twice the armament........
A DE on AIP is quiet! Operating on dead quiet in that mode, there are no moving parts. In that mode they are as quiet and in some cases, quiter than our nucs.
But they do not have speed or staying power and so their usefulness in the blue water is limited compared to the nucs. In addition, once they announce their presence they are toast.
Just the same, the US Navy is taking the threat very seriously. We have leased the crew and equipment of one of our allies with very quiet AIP DEs and are using them to develop counter measures and tactics against these vessels even when they are at their strongest. We dare not underestimate them...and I believe our Navy is not and will be prpared in the event of any hostilities...ie. the Formosa Straits.
The first real AIP system,the German ‘Walter’ system used H202 as the oxidizer.
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