Posted on 10/10/2007 10:46:42 AM PDT by Man50D
Edited on 10/12/2007 5:33:39 PM PDT by Admin Moderator. [history]
Heavens no, don’t post the truth, we wouldn’t want anyone to know the truth, now would we....
Under the FT: I make $100. I can spend only about $75 because I will have to pay about 25% sales tax.
As I said before, you keep trying to change the subject to future earnings rather than savings. Here you did it again.
I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT MONEY YOU EARN AFTER THE FAIR TAX GOES INTO EFFECT. I"M TALKING ABOUT MONEY EARNED BEFORE THE FAIR TAX GOES INTO EFFECT THAT PEOPLE SAVED.
Now you have been arguing that the value of all my assets will decrease if the FT is adopted.
That is not true. As I have said over and over again in our discussions, tax deferred savings is different. The reason post tax savings gets hit is the government won't refund the taxes you payed on those earnings under the old tax system.
With tax deferred savings such as a 401k, you never paid income taxes on it. It is basically not considered earnings until you withdraw it. The effects on those savings is the same as your example on future earnings in your example. The removal of the income tax offsets the addition of the sales tax.
ONLY the value of my after tax savings may decrease.
It almost sounds like you get it, but you still keep trying to switch to future earnings in your examples.
And I can spend it and pay taxes on it when I wish. At my leisure.
You don't really have a choice on paying taxes any more than you do now, you just pay them in a different way. You have a bit more control because you can decide to buy as many used items as possible, however since used items will be inflated in price as well since their competition is new items that are taxed, you really don't get away from the effects of the tax, you just pay them indirectly.
The Fair Tax is revenue neutral, and isn't designed to decrease taxes for most people. The rich will likely pay a bit less, and the middle class a bit more.
You get the illusion of more control, but not a whole lot of real control.
The sales tax adds to the costs of all items.
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It’s the prebate that will be inflationary as it results in the creation of new money out of nothing
When I supplied a solid detailed example using equations to show exactly what I meant, you were unwilling or unable to continue address those examples.
You have faith in the Fair Tax, you don't have solid knowledge about the effects of the Fair Tax. I bring solid facts into the discussion, you try and change the subject.
The prebate doesn't really create money any more than letting people keep their payroll taxes creates money. What both do is put more money in the hands of people to spend, and then take it back when it is spent.
It doesn't create "inflation" by the strictest economic definition which requires an increase in the money supply, because it doesn't actually increase the money supply.
However since it puts more money in the hands of people it has the same effect on prices. However, since the government takes it back in the form of a sales tax, the effect on spending power of people income is neutral. The effect of the price inflation really only hits savings that was already taxed as income.
but the government gives the prebate to people before it gets the taxes to pay for it. This prebate comes from nowhere. It’s different than a rebate that comes after the tax was collected.
True, it comes from the government's current money reserves, and then gets paid back as people purchase things.
This prebate comes from nowhere.
No it comes from tax dollars that were already paid to the government in the past.
It’s different than a rebate that comes after the tax was collected.
Not really. People just get the money up front instead of getting it in a refund. The government no longer gets it's taxes up front (payroll deduction) and instead get taxes when items are purchased.
The effect is like the government giving everyone a rolling monthly interest free loan. When you overpay taxes under the current system you give the government an interest free loan until you get your refund early the next year.
Get smoked on one thread, and get paid to post another...some racket.. If anyone got "smoked" on this subject, it damned sure wasn't you who had anything to do with it.
So, let me ask you who got "smoked," and by whom?
***this should be good -- IF the trwerp even answers***
No I’ll concede that after tax savings COULD take a hit. I have often said that is one flaw that should be addressed and possibly can be addressed by somehow taxing the trillion or so in pre tax savings during the transition. How am I switching into future earnings?
If the facts don't fit the subject IMHO then I should try to change it.
yes the govt is giving everyone a loan and we don’t have to pay it back unless we want to buy new retail goods.
That simply makes it a “permission to live tax” which is exactly what it is.
one wonders why the sudden push for this agenda at this time. Are they trying to influence somebody’s presidential bid? I’d sugggest Hillary - she’d be more amenable than, say Guliani, I’d think.
and one also wonders whether these posters aree being paid for posting, by whom, and why. why this forum and not, say, DU?
It is true that you don't pay it back unless you buy things. However, unless people are giving you free food and housing, it will be hard not to pay most of that back and more.
I guess if you grow your own food and already own your own home you can avoid paying much in taxes. I guess this might be a small windfall for the poor but self sufficient. However, the self sufficient don't use a lot of government services either.
That simply makes it a “permission to live tax” which is exactly what it is.
You mean that if you don't pay it, they will execute you? Sounds a bit drastic, don't you think?
one wonders why the sudden push for this agenda at this time. Are they trying to influence somebody’s presidential bid? I’d sugggest Hillary - she’d be more amenable than, say Guliani, I’d think.
and one also wonders whether these posters aree being paid for posting, by whom, and why. why this forum and not, say, DU?
HEY FOLKS -- looks like we had better ease off on this lil feller, he has finally gone completely out of his alleged mind.
Believe me. I don't need to be paid to try and rid America of an organization that pries into every financial aspect of each of its citizens, that taxes the productivity of those citizens, that testifies before congress wearing masks like mafia thugs, that throws due process out the window, that employs tens of thousands of people, that uses its enforcement power to violate at least 5 of the original 10 amendments in the Bill of Rights and enforces a code that no one comes close to understanding.
I'll gladly work for free to replace it with a tax system that serves the people instead of groups of special interests.
OTOH one would expect paid shills to protect those special interests, especially on forums such as FR where the debate takes place. Who's on here protecting the life insurance and annuity industries? Whose protecting the tax shelter peddlers, retirement plan administrators, K Street? Seems to me that the SQL's are the ones with the most to lose and the most incentive to pay silver tongued ringers to tell the world how lousy ANYTHING except the income tax is.
Don't forget to deny, deny, deny.
Believe me. I don't need to be paid to try and rid America of an organization that pries into every financial aspect of each of its citizens, that taxes the productivity of those citizens, that testifies before congress wearing masks like mafia thugs, that throws due process out the window, that employs tens of thousands of people, that uses its enforcement power to violate at least 5 of the original 10 amendments in the Bill of Rights and enforces a code that no one comes close to understanding.
I'll gladly work for free to replace it with a tax system that serves the people instead of groups of special interests.
OTOH one would expect paid shills to protect those special interests, especially on forums such as FR where the debate takes place. Who's on here protecting the life insurance and annuity industries? Whose protecting the tax shelter peddlers, retirement plan administrators, K Street? Seems to me that the SQL's are the ones with the most to lose and the most incentive to pay silver tongued ringers to tell the world how lousy ANYTHING except the income tax is.
Don't forget to deny, deny, deny.
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