Abortion's shades of gray (by Michael Medved)

Townhall.com ^ | October 24, 2007 | Michael Medved

[EveningStar]

Though activists attempt to corral presidential candidates, such as Rudy Giuliani, into a specific camp, beliefs today are much more nuanced. It’s no longer a black-and-white debate.

The battle for the Republican presidential nomination might serve to clear away prevailing confusion and contradictions about public opinion on abortion. Rudy Giuliani seeks the White House by reaching out to that majority of Americans who say they are pro-choice — and anti-abortion...

[the808bass]

The fact there is so much hesitation shows the rhetoric to be mostly for emotional effect and inconsistent at its core.

The fact that you think your argument is so logically brilliant does not make it so. A legal procedure (no matter how immoral) is not subject to legal prosecution. But of course you know that. So your argument simply becomes rhetoric for emotional effect and inconsistent at its core. Where have I heard that before?

[Sadecki]

The alleged popularity of legal abortion will fade as science increasingly makes it impossible to maintain that abortion isn’t the taking of a human life.

I think that even people who support limited abortion rights believe that it is a taking of a human life. Which is why it is such a horrible and tragic decision to have to make. It is a decison that weighed heavy on the hearts of every woman I now who has had one.

Democrats on the other hand seem incapable of acknowledging that abortion is the taking of a human life -- right up to birth -- Hillary has even voted against bills that would add a criminal charge of assault or murder (if the baby dies) to the assailant of a woman who is pregnant.

I think you are right to the extent that the "abortion on demand, up to birth" crowd will be increasingly out of favor with the populus as video/photographic medical technology increasingly allows the humanity of the fetus to be shown so clearly.

I also think that as the technology increases, the age of viabilty will decrease and laws restricting abortion will get tighter and tighter.

[EveningStar]

Sadecki, “so-called” is an apt description. Good post.

[Sadecki]

Gravitas

Nobody's ever accused Rudy of lacking gravitas -- especially in NYC. He was a very commanding presence the entire time he was a mayor.

But FYI: rudy appeared in drag 3x in his 8 years as mayor. Once on saturday night live. And twice at the annual "mayors inner circle" press roasts which is the one event during the year where the mayor is supposed to make fun of himself.

Sometimes he used the press roast as a chance to get a plug in for broadway in some way-- once he was dressed as an animal from the "Lion King" and another time, as you know from the photo you posted, he was a character from the show Victor/Victoria on stage with Julie Andrews and the rest of the cast.

[the808bass]

Which is why it is such a horrible and tragic decision to have to make. It is a decison that weighed heavy on the hearts of every woman I now who has had one.

It is also the perfect example of the cognitive dissonance of post-postmodern society. From what I could find, ~70% of people believed abortion was the taking of a human life. And yet 89% of abortions are performed as contraception. Reasons from "not ready to have a baby" to "concerned about how a baby will change her life" to "can't afford a baby" are pretty much contraception.

So, though ~70% of people agree that abortion takes a human life, the vast majority of abortions are performed for reasons that do not seem to justify the taking of a human life.

[teenyelliott]

Conservatives are not allowed to have a sense of humor, don't you know that??????????

Stick around, and you will learn that soon enough.

[tear gas]

Personally, I disagree with Giuliani on abortion. I am unhesitatingly pro-life,

I like Michael Medved, but when you cut away all the BS, he's promoting a pervert here and he doesn't explain why.

If Rudy and Hillary both get nominated, we will elect our first female president . . . no matter which candidate wins.

[Sadecki]

It is also the perfect example of the cognitive dissonance of post-postmodern society.

it's more complicated then that. It's also about terms like "viability" and "quality of life" and "separation of church and state" as well as the dreaded "right to privacy" argument made in Roe v wade.

My views are very simple. I am a Christian and personally pro-life. My religion informs me that life begins at conception. And I would try my best to talk a woman out of getting an abortion. If they did get one. That is between their God and them . If I failed to talk a woman out of an abortion, that is between me and my God.

I am also an American, and I belive that we are a nation of secular laws. And I believe that there is a disconnect between my religious views on abortion, and what the Constitution and declaration of Independence inform me defines a "life" under those secular laws.

And for me, under those secular laws a life does not begin at conception -- but at viabilty -- because it is at that point the fetus becomes a whole and separate being distinct from the mother and therefore a unique individual deserving of all the protections and rights afforded to every other person living in this great nation.

As a result, I can support a secular policy towards abortion that includes, parental and spousal notification, contraception and first trimester abortions with heavy restrictions after that up to viabilty and after that only to save the life of the mother.

As the technology increases and the point of reasonable viabilty becomes shorter and shorter, then the window for a woman to have a legal abortion will also become shorter and shorter -- theoretically at least -- one day - viabilty and conception could be one and the same.

In this way, I maintain my personal religious views that life begins at conception, while still acknowledging that there are other americans who don't embrace this religious view as I do. But at the same time however, I also realize that Christian, Jew, Budhist, or atheist -- there is a point in the pregnancy in which they have no choice but to agree because the law compels them to -- and that point is viability.

[the808bass]

it's more complicated then that. It's also about terms like "viability" and "quality of life" and "separation of church and state" as well as the dreaded "right to privacy" argument made in Roe v wade.

All the right verbiage is there, but you cannot dress up 89% of abortions being performed for contraceptive reasons. I will list the reasons given individually. Feel free to assign terms like "viability," "quality of life," "separation of church and state," and "right to privacy" (penumbrally emanating as it may be) to each of them.

REASONS GIVEN FOR ABORTIONS: AGI SURVEY, 2004 [22]

reason	% of abortions, most important reason	% of abortions, all reasons
rape	<0.5	(1)
incest		(<0.5)
mother has health problems	4	(12)
possible fetal health problems	3	(13)
unready	25	(32)
is too immature or young to have child	7	(22)
woman's parents want her to have abortion	<0.5	(6)
has problems with relationship or wants to avoid single parenthood	8	(48)
husband or partner wants her to have abortion	<0.5	(14)
has all the children she wanted or all children are grown	19	(38)
can't afford baby now	23	(73)
--unmarried		(42)
--student or planning to study		(34)
--can't afford baby and child care		(28)
--can't afford basic life needs		(23)
--unemployed		(22)
--can't leave job to care for baby		(21)
--would have to find new place to live		(19)
--not enough support from husband/partner		(14)
--husband/partner unemployed		(12)
--currently on welfare or public assistance		(8)
concerned about how having baby would change her life		(74)
--would interfere with education plans	4	(38)
--would interfere with career plans		(38)
--would interfere with care of children or dependents		(32)
doesn't want others to know she had relations or is pregnant	<0.5	(25)
other	6

The first number I quoted was from a 1988 study. I found 2004 numbers which aren't radically different, but more relevant. Note that <8% of the primary reasons are for rape/incest, possible fetal health problems, and maternal health problems combined. If we are charitable and add the entire 6% in the "Other" category, we come to 86% of abortions which are done primarily for convenience (you can dispute my usage of the word "convenience" here but only at risk of distorting your original claim that abortion is the taking of a human life).

[teenyelliott]

I don't care what the Pope says. I'm not Catholic.

And there are a whole lot of criminals I'd like to see dead. I'd pull the lever, or push the button, or stick the needle. Whatever.

Innocence is to be protected. The vile murderous adult, no.

Interesting that you make exceptions for three murderers, and not all. I'm willing to bet that if your sister, or father, or child was murdered, you'd include a fourth exception.

[Sadecki]

you can dispute my usage of the word "convenience" here but only at risk of distorting your original claim that abortion is the taking of a human life

Most of what I dispute is your ability to walk in another's persons shoes and be able to pass judgement on them with a spreadsheet. That's not to say there aren't women out their who are having multiple abortions and showing a callous disregard for human life in the process. I've never met a woman like that. Those I know who have had abortions, many for the reason you've described above -- nevertheless were touched forever by the event, and would never do it again. If anything, in their cases, it made them far more responsible with their sexuality.

[LowCountryJoe]

I am all for the issue getting kicked back to the states...the juristiction where many of the current federal issues and legislation have been wrongly placed. But then I have a father-in-law that wants none of that states’ rights talk: he wants abortion ended everywhere without exception. It would be nice but not everyone operates with the same belief system. I guess for me, I can abhor the practice but still not want the law to dictate — even at the state level. These people will have to answer for their sins, when it matters most and there are no human judges.

[the808bass]

Most of what I dispute is your ability to walk in another's persons shoes and be able to pass judgement on them with a spreadsheet.

Well played. However, I did not choose the women's reasons for terminating their pregnancy for them. They chose the reason in the survey. The fact that the vast majority of the reasons do not seem compelling from the benefit of outside perspective does not minimize the weight of the decision. You cannot simultaneously claim the decision is weighty and then defend an abortion based upon the mother "would have to find a new place to live." Of course, the "spreadsheet" was chosen to simply display the reasons that the women gave in the easiest-to-read fashion. Moving anecdotes would be dismissed for the opposite reason, I'm sure.

Those I know who have had abortions, many for the reason you've described above -- nevertheless were touched forever by the event, and would never do it again. If anything, in their cases, it made them far more responsible with their sexuality.

I'm not sure that this point is a strong support for your argument. The fact that the women would never do it again does not seem to me to be good support. And if the option was not available for "convenience", would it have made them far more responsible with their sexuality in the pre- rather than the post- ?

[the808bass]

These people will have to answer for their sins, when it matters most and there are no human judges.

Agreed. However, it is not inconsistent to affirm an eternal judgment and to also wish that our current society closely reflects what is just and right (in the objective sense) in its mores and laws.

[WhyisaTexasgirlinPA]

Rudi said he would give his daughter money for an abortion if she asked. He is not anti-abortion

[phillyfanatic]

Before Roe, as we all know, the states decided the process. Those who want to give up for adoption, still would have that choice. The choicers never want to have that one, however. Still, it takes the Feds out of the process. As to Rudy, he is changing. His SCOTUS choices convinced me that he is not a raving NARAL IDIOT. BTW, the libs in the media have been attacking him daily. Why? If he is so like them , why be afraid of him?

[WhyisaTexasgirlinPA]

..and illegal in the 3rd trimester except to save the Life (not the health) of the mother

I've never quite understood why an abortion would need to be performed in the last trimester of a pregnancy. Many babies are born during that trimester and live, so why, if the Mother's life was in danger, could they not deliver the baby and try to save it?