Johnston Intruder Pinned by Car Dies (Deliberately rammed by man protecting his property)

That would be: “Amen, Sister!”

Sorry, M'am; I'll remember that in future!

>>>The question would be whether he could see, or reasonably foresee, that the guy was between the cr and the fence when he rammed it.

The guy was running, and I'll bet you dimes to doughnuts that this happened so quickly that Reid didn't see ANYTHING other than stopping the car.

Probably true, and probably convincing to a jury. But "I'll bet you dimes to doughnuts" is neither a legal theory nor a defense.

>>>Agree. Unless there's something we don't know -- for example, if Reid was yelling to his buddies at a bar the week before that he was going to run down the next guy who robbed his place -- I agree it's highly unlikely he'll be prosecuted.

Which is why you don't put "Beware of Owner" signs all over your property with a picture of a gun. And you don't mouth off at the bar about shooting intruders either. lol

Again, we're talking about the law here. If a guy says "I'm gonna run down the next guy who robs my place," and then he runs down the next guy who robs his place, that tends to undercut a defense based on the claim that it was an accident.

>>>It's possible Reid could plead guilty to some misdemeanor with a suspended sentence just so both sides can make the case go away.

Is that wishful thinking or something?

No, it's a plausible outcome based on having seen these things before. The family of the deceased will press for a prosecution, and Reid's supporters will push the opposite way. A plea to a minor offense lets Reid off the hook for any serious punishment, and lets the DA argue that he didn't let him off "scot free."

Didn't you read the whole article? The Sheriff said he didn't see anything wrong here with what Reid did. Unless the Sheriff presses the issue with the DA, it's doubtful anything will happen.

The sheriff doesn't have the last word, and he isn't the only person who has the DA's phone number.

>>>It looks that way to us armchair quarterbacks based on one news story. How it looks to the law is another matter.

Well, to some degree. None of us were there. IF everything happened exactly as stated though, and nothing else comes of the investigation, then it is as it appears to us "arm chair quarterbacks". Have you ever had to defend yourself against a robber? [etc.] Unless you have been in one or more of those particular circumstances, you're likely an "armchair quarterback".

Yes, I am. That's why I used a first-person pronoun. The fact of the matter is that all of us on this thread are armchair-quarterbacking in this case, because we don't have all the facts and we're not in the game, unless someone here has a connection to this case they haven't mentioned.

I'm NOT an "armchair" quarterback. I speak from experience, I don't talk out my ass like some people do when they try to discredit the other side of an argument.

I'm not trying to discredit anyone. I know how to read a statute and I've watched a lot of trials -- that's the extent of my expertise.

>>Again, what you assume isn't necessarily what you're legally entitled to assume and act on.

As a reasonable person, if I came up to my home and say someone fleeing the property I'm going to get a description of the car, license plate, individual or whatever else I can do.

So would I. I'd also try to fire off a few shots -- with a camera. I usually have one handy.

IF I am in a position to prevent them from departing, I'm going to do so.

So would I, if I felt I could do so without unreasonable risk to myself or other. Including, even, the perp.

What I am LEGALLY entitled to "assume" about the situation isn't relevant at the time of the incident.

It's relevant when you get to court. I don't know about you, but I'm not willing to risk even 30 days in jail to save my television. It's worth thinking through and reading up in advance, and giving a little advance thought to what's worth it and what isn't.

Mental preparation for emergencies isn't limited to crime. If you arrived home to find your house on fire, how much risk would it be worth to rush in and save your computer? Important papers? Irreplaceable heirlooms? Your cat? A child? Different thresholds, obviously.

If I came upon my property, and the same situation were occuring, I'd have done the exact same thing, whether I knew or not my property was in his car.

Then you're a menace. If you saw a car outside your gate, you'd ram it, without knowing who and what are in it or why it's there? It's a wonder you haven't killed a meter-reader yet.

YES. If he ACCIDENTLY died, as it appears, am I responsible for putting him in the position he FOUND himself? NO. He did it to himself, and he'd be alive if he weren't robbing peoples' homes.

How far down the criminal food chain does that logic extend? "Officer, he'd still be alive if he hadn't shoplifted a pack of gum and forced me to hit him in the face with a baseball bat."

“In Mississippi we have the “Castle Doctrine”. If you break into a Mississippi home... and the owner perceives his or her life is in danger... we can use lethal force without fear. This is indeed the American Way.”

...and in Florida, the perp, nor the surviving family or estate can sue you for damages either...also, if there is an accomplice (that survives the homeowner's fusillade) he can be charge with his partner’s murder as a felony murder case.

You are right. You sound like a lib.

Sorry. ;)

You are quite correct. Of course I behaved exactly as you said and people were generally quite nice.

However, I believe use of lethal force is inappropriate in the defence of property.

Threaten my family and I have a whole different point of view.

Oh, I *know* that. BUT the name WILL be used to the race card advantage, you can make book on that! >:-(

the jury is gonna presume "accident" in the absence of motive.

LOL

I think that our law was fashioned after yours. It is very similar.

LLS

One can hope so.

No Clinton jokes about the Johnston intruder? Amazing.

Rick,

You make many very good philosophical points, and I tend to agree with you on most of those points.

However, if you, like I, routinely carry a weapon and have them at home for defensive purposes, I would suggest that you very carefully check out what the law will, a will not, allow you to do in defense of your property.

Would I like to catch and shoot the sunovabitch that stole my outboard motor? You bet.

But if I had caught him in the act and shot him, I might well be doing time.

Be careful! What the law seems to say and what it actually means can be very different.

Regards,

EEDUDE

Theres a lot of difference between the various States in handling cases like this.
In Texas, this would be justified because you’re defending your lawful property and thus deadly force is allowed.

Wow. I hate to sound like a lib but lethal force is not called for when “protecting your property”.

If you choose to steal, you should be prepared to die. I have no problem shooting someone stealing from me.

I know exactly what the law here in Colorado says I can and can not do. I have checked it very carefully, and I do routinely carry a weapon. I was also trained as a peace officer at one time. I’m well aware of all of the laws in my state and those I visit.

Probably true, and probably convincing to a jury. But "I'll bet you dimes to doughnuts" is neither a legal theory nor a defense.

I never said it was a legal theory or defense, I said "I'd BET you" that there wasn't enough time to see the guy running, and he likely DID NOT see the guy behind the car. Even so all one has to do is show reasonable DOUBT.

In this case, there is no reasonable doubt at this time the guy wasn't robbing the owner. There isn't likely even to be a case against the homeowner, so I don't even understand you continuing to advocate such.

No, it's a plausible outcome based on having seen these things before. The family of the deceased will press for a prosecution, and Reid's supporters will push the opposite way. A plea to a minor offense lets Reid off the hook for any serious punishment, and lets the DA argue that he didn't let him off "scot free."

Extremely unlikely that Reid will plead to ANYTHING. It is UNLIKELY there will be charges. Period. So, you're continuing to make this supposition that he'll be charged.

The sheriff doesn't have the last word, and he isn't the only person who has the DA's phone number.

The Sheriff doesn't have the "last word", he has the FIRST word. If the SHERIFF, who in nearly EVERY county of this country is the "Highest legal law enforcement authority" says "This man should not be charged" the DA isn't going to push it.

That, Sir is a fact in this country. Now, I know it isn't EVERY county in the United States, but it is certainly the vast majority of them. This is a fact. So your remarks that the Sheriff doesn't have the "last word" you are completely incorrect about the subject.

I cite the following: "In the United States a sheriff is generally (but not always) the highest, usually elected, law enforcement officer of a county and commander of militia in that county."

And...

"North Carolina

The office of sheriff is constitutionally mandated in North Carolina. It is an elected law enforcement office.

The sheriff has duties in all three branches of law enforcement: Policing, Courts/Criminal Justice and Corrections/Jail. The Office of the Sheriff is the primary law enforcement agency for the unincorporated areas of North Carolina's counties. The Sheriff, as the County's chief law enforcement officer, has jurisdiction anywhere in the County, including municipalities, where the Sheriff's Office provides assistance and support to local law enforcement agencies."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheriff http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a387ed2016c56.htm

You're more than welcome to your opinion that the Sheriff hasn't the final word, but that ain't the facts.... what I cited above, IS the facts.

Yes, I am. That's why I used a first-person pronoun. The fact of the matter is that all of us on this thread are armchair-quarterbacking in this case, because we don't have all the facts and we're not in the game, unless someone here has a connection to this case they haven't mentioned.

Again, you're wrong. No, neither you nor I can talk specifically about the details of this case, other than the facts we do know. I have had experience with a similar incident, so I'm not "talking out my ass" or armchair quarterbacking. If you haven't been robbed, had a break in, stopped a murder, rescued people then you're "Arm Chair quarterbacking". If you've been in the position of being a person who has had similar experiences, then you're talking from EXPERIENCE. That's where I'm coming from.

No, I don't know all the details, but I can read as well as anyone can. I have not heard anything NEW on the case as of this morning, so that notwithstanding, what the SHERIFF says goes. If he sees no charges pending, then there are NO CHARGES PENDING.

I'm not trying to discredit anyone. I know how to read a statute and I've watched a lot of trials -- that's the extent of my expertise.

Well, glad to see that you're not trying to discredit anyone. Neither am I. But, I am speaking from EXPERIENCE too, and I've not only watched trials, I've participated as a juror in several cases, some that were not unlike this one.

So would I, if I felt I could do so without unreasonable risk to myself or other. Including, even, the perp.

This is where we differ. If someone is stealing from me, he is taking my earnings, my hard-earned "stuff". For the most part, I'm not going to just shoot someone, but if they are in my home, or on my property and trying to leave with my "stuff", they are taking their lives in their hands. They are taking their lives in their hands if the enter ANYONE'S Property anywhere.

The point here, and where you and I apparently differ is that you don't want to harm anyone. Good for you. I'm all for stopping a criminal in his tracks, even if he is harmed. He doesn't belong there, he's going down somehow. Whether it's a 2X4 to the forehead or a shotgun, HE entered ILLEGALLY, committed a felony, and is now considered a fleeing felon. He's going to get stopped, even IF he has to be harmed in the process.

It's relevant when you get to court. I don't know about you, but I'm not willing to risk even 30 days in jail to save my television. It's worth thinking through and reading up in advance, and giving a little advance thought to what's worth it and what isn't. Mental preparation for emergencies isn't limited to crime. If you arrived home to find your house on fire, how much risk would it be worth to rush in and save your computer? Important papers? Irreplaceable heirlooms? Your cat? A child? Different thresholds, obviously.

Again, you don't know me, so you can't make rash assupmtions about what I am willing to risk, and my reasons. (For your information, I TRAIN people how to behave in those very emergency situations that you mentioned. I go 3-4 times a year to a college where law professionals are taught, and I train them in "quick thinking", and emegency survival... duh. I THINK I know what I am talking about. And I am certain you don't.)

If I came upon my property, and the same situation were occuring, I'd have done the exact same thing, whether I knew or not my property was in his car. Then you're a menace. If you saw a car outside your gate, you'd ram it, without knowing who and what are in it or why it's there? It's a wonder you haven't killed a meter-reader yet.

No, I am not a meance. I didn't SAY anything of the kind and you ARE attempting to discredit what I say now. This is exactly the kind of crap leftists pull in an arguement when they are obviously losing one, obfuscation, redirection, and re-wording what people have said. I NEVER said I would ram a car I didn't recognize. Just as Mr. Reid DID NOT. What I SAID was in similar circumstances, I'd have done the same thing.

Mr. REID SAW people running to their car, and trying to get the HELL OUT OF THERE. And yes, in that particular instance, you're damned RIGHT I'm going to block them in, even if I have to RAM their car to stop them.

If they are people *I* DO NOT KNOW, and they are on MY PROPERTY, DEPARTING QUICKLY, then SOMETHING IS WRONG. You're damned RIGHT I'm going to prevent them from leaving as I arrive. How do *I* know there is a problem? Same way he did. They weren't calm, and they were in a BIG HURRY. How the HELL do I know they just didn't murder my wife and grandchildren and they are trying to get the hell out?????? I DO NOT KNOW. And I'm going to have to make the assumption BASED ON THEIR BEHAVIOR, not MINE on what to do next.

Anyone who says they would "just let them go" is the meance!

How far down the criminal food chain does that logic extend? "Officer, he'd still be alive if he hadn't shoplifted a pack of gum and forced me to hit him in the face with a baseball bat."

It ought to go all the way down the criminal food chain.

Stealing is WRONG, period, no matter from whom something is stolen, or what is stolen. Whether it is stealing a pack of gum, a car, items from a home, or cash from someone's wallet. It's a violation of the individual rights of people to have things taken from them illegally, it's immoral and just plain STUPID of criminals to do it. There are no "degrees of wrongness". It's PLAIN WRONG, PERIOD. TV, CAR, gum, candy, it doesn't MATTER. If someone is caught stealing they should pay the price for it. (Yes, I agree this guy that died probably shouldn't have, but no she SHOULDN'T have been there, so STOP trying to make this sound like REID did something wrong. Let's FOCUS the laser beam on the THEIF.)

If few criminals wound up with that baseball bat across their shins or face for doing it, less of them would be stealing.

It's utter bullshit for you to think that somehow the criminal who was stealing should be treated "better" than the man who was stolen from.

It's that liberal, bullshit attitude that lets those bastards walk free from prison after they have raped a woman, molested or raped a child, stolen thouands in cash or items from others, shop lifted from stores or car jacked someone.

It's that liberal, bullshit attitude that weakens the laws we already have, and the SAME crap that tries to do things like take away our gun rights.

Buddy, the ONLY people that will have guns when they take our gun rights are criminals, and you will still be there being SOFT on them.

Screw the guy that died. He might not have deserved to die like a dog, but the man that STOPPED him should get a medal for stopping a criminal

EEDude, I want you to know one other thing about me owning weapons for “defensive purposes”. I do NOT own weapons for defensive purposes ONLY. I own weapons for OFFENSIVE PURPOSES.

I have defended this country in the military for 26 years, and I continue to defend this country now for well over 30 years in other jobs.

I own weapons that can indeed be used for assaulting a military position, and yes they can indeed kill people. I have shotguns, semi-automatic weapons of all sorts, rifles for hunting, and the know-how in using each of them.

I’m practiced and practice regularly at shooting “man sized targets” up close and personal, and at great distances.

If this country is ever invaded, I WILL BE RIGHT THERE NEXT TO THE REST of the Americans, who, like be believe in Freedom.

No, sir, my weapons are NOT for “defensive purposes” alone. I freely admit this, and will use them for their intended use when necessary.

No man, or animal on this planet am I afraid of, nor should you or anyone else should be. I’m not afraid of the Chinese, North Koreans, nor nuclear weapons.

What I AM afraid of is political correctness, which dictates what you can, and can not say. When it takes someone’s mind and turns them into a weak human being who can’t make a decision, makes them feel they are somehow in the right when they steal, rape, murder and commit other mayhem is beyond me, but it creates those on the LEFT who can’t take personal responsibility for THEMSELVES, and yet, gives them some kind of virtual strength to fight for those same CRIMINALS they want to make ME into by owning a gun.

Just so you know.

Just so you understand. I don’t abide liars, and thieves, and I don’t have to. I don’t abide those who try to take my Rights from me, by legislating them away or arguing circles to try to make a point they can’t honestly make.

"Case closed."

It should be. We need to get back to a place in this country where there is a serious and immediate threat associated with committing these types of crimes (burgulary, robbery, assault, et cetera). That means having only two rules governing use of force against criminals:

1) Was it reasonable to assume the crime was being committed, and...

2) Was the force applied during the commission of the crime.

Crime should be damn'd dangerous to a criminal's health.

Gosh, a story with MORE information about what actually happened. For all of you that want to see Reid “get hanged” for this, eat your hearts out. He probably WILL NOT have any charges. READ the article.

Intruder dies after homeowner hits car
‘I just backed up and waited for the law’
Marlon A. Walker and Thomasi McDonald
(Raleigh) News & Observer
Posted on Fri, Nov. 09, 2007

SELMA —
A suspected thief has died from injuries he received Thursday when his car was struck by a truck driven by a homeowner.

Lauren Williams, a spokeswoman for Duke Medical Center, this morning confirmed the death of Cornelius Brown, 40, of Dudley. Brown was airlifted Thursday to Duke Hospital.

Brown was injured after John Reid pulled up to his mobile home at 955 Hawkins Road, outside Selma, about 1:30 p.m. Thursday and found Brown and a companion there. Reid said someone had been stealing equipment used in his lawn-care business for about a year.

Reid, 37, said that he saw an Oldsmobile Cutlass with one of his augers in its open trunk. Brown and a second man walked out from behind the home, Reid said, and Brown became belligerent.

“[He] got out and started talking to me, asking me what I was doing on this land ... acting like it was his,” Reid said.

When Reid told Brown that he had the authorities on his cell phone, Brown ran to the Cutlass. Reid said that in a panic his foot got caught between his brake and gas pedals and his truck hit the Cutlass, knocking it backward. With the car still moving, Reid said, Brown jumped out.

“When he did, his door hit him and wedged him in between the car and the fence pole,” Reid said. “I just backed up and waited for the law to get here.”

Sheriff Steve Bizzell said that deputies also found a generator that belonged to Reid in the car.

Reid said the men told authorities they hadn’t taken anything. “They kept denying it ... saying they were just here looking for a job,” he said.

Bizzell said he expected no charges against Reid, but said the investigation would continue.

The passenger in Brown’s car, Mark Ray McNair, 46, of Dudley, was charged with second-degree trespassing, misdemeanor larceny and felony possession of burglary tools.

McNair was jailed under $11,000 bail, Bizzell said.

Reid said Thursday that he was hoping Brown would survive.

“I’m sorry that the guy got hurt,” Reid said. “I hate that it happened.”

Man Who Hit Suspected Thief: 'I Freaked Out' John Reid

Posted: Nov. 9, 2007 Updated: Today at 10:44 a.m.

Selma — Editor's Note: WRAL.com initially ran a photo with this story that it identified as Cornelius Brown. The photo was not of Mr. Brown, and WRAL.com regrets the error.

An intruder who police say was pinned between a car and a fence Thursday afternoon by a homeowner has died, and authorities said Friday they are weighing possible criminal charges against the homeowner.

Cornelius Brown and another man were in a car trying to leave a residence near the intersection of Hawkins Road and U.S. Highway 301 between Micro and Selma when homeowner John Reid said he pulled into the driveway and tried to block their path with his pickup truck.

"I freaked out when I seen them speeding out of my driveway," Reid told a 911 dispatcher. "I don't know what they were doing here. They were speeding out of my driveway – speeding with dust flying."

Reid told the dispatcher his property had been burglarized three times in recent months and that he had about $6,000 in equipment for his lawn care business on the property.

As Brown tried to scramble out of the car and run, Reid said, he hit the gas pedal by mistake.

"My foot got stuck on the gas, and I rammed them. I hit them good," he told the dispatcher. "He got wedged in between his car and a fence post – I mean wedged bad."

During the 11-minute 911 call, Reid repeatedly asked for an ambulance to come to treat Brown, saying the suspected thief had hit his head and suffered extensive injuries.

"I don't want this character dying on my property," he said.

Reid also could be heard during the call shouting at the second suspected thief.

"Listen, buddy. I've been broken into three times," he yelled. "You shouldn't have been messing around in my yard."

Brown was airlifted to Duke University Hospital, where he died Friday morning.

Investigators found a piece of machinery belonging to Reid into the back of the suspects' car.

Mark Ray McNair, 46, of Dudley, was charged with trespassing and larceny in connection with the incident. He remained in the Johnston County Jail Friday.

Both Brown and McNair have lengthy criminal records involving thefts. Reid also was convicted of 16 counts of breaking and entering and larceny in Warren County in 1988 and 1989, according to court records.

Johnston County Sheriff Steve Bizzell said his preliminary findings make it unlikely Reid would be charged in Brown's death, but Johnston County District Attorney Susan Doyle said Friday that Brown's death raises the severity of the case.

"You just really have to look at all the facts and circumstances and see whether that behavior was justified under the law or whether it actually was not and resulted in an intentional criminal act," Doyle said.

Attorney Karl Knudsen said Reid's intent is the key to the case: Did he intend to hurt Brown, or was he just trying to detain the men for deputies?

"Was it reasonable?" said Knudsen, who was cleared of wrongdoing himself after he shot and killed two robbers in his home in 1982. "All the Monday-morning quarterbacking later on isn't going to change the fact that this guy was confronted with what perceived to be a serious situation."

Doyle said prosecutors in her office are reviewing the case with sheriff's investigators and would decide next week whether to press charges against Reid.

(My notes: WITH THE SHERIFF'S investigators, meaning, if they say "don't press charges" the DA won't press charges!)

Last year, Randle Holmes, 62, shot and wounded a would-be intruder as the teen drove away in the middle of the night. A Johnston County grand jury declined to indict Holmes in the case.

http://www.wral.com/golo/page/1896337/?id=2022331\

There are over 300 comments there at that forum site. It APPEARS that the general consensus among locals is that Reid didn’t do anything wrong. I find it difficult to believe that a Grand Jury would chose to have charges brought, or that the DA and Sheriff (who already said “Probably NOT”) would change their way of thinking.