Romney Talks Tough on Immigration

townhall.com ^ | 17 November 2007 | Kathleen Hennessey

[Rockitz]

Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney on Saturday promised to cut federal funding for cities and states that he considers tolerant of illegal immigration, though he said he was unsure how deep the cuts would be.

The former Massachusetts governor repeated his plans to deny funding to sanctuary cities, states that issue driver's licenses to illegal immigrants and states that allow the children of illegal immigrants to receive in-state tuition discounts at universities.

"They are practices that, if you will, extend this sanctuary state of mind we have," Romney told more than 200 people gathered at a public library. "I like immigration _ legal immigration."

Romney also outlined a plan for an employment verification card that, he said, would make it easy for companies to determine a prospective employee's citizenship status before hiring.

Romney told reporters he was unsure how much federal funding he would cut. "I can't give you the specifics," he said. The campaign later described the in-state tuition plan as a proposal to "trim back" education funds.

Romney said Saturday he did not think students who are in the U.S. legally should be denied discounted tuition, even if their parents are illegal, but that "people that are here illegally should not be able to get a tuition break that allows illegals to have tuition that's lower than the children of our citizens."

Romney has used the issue to criticize opponent Mike Huckabee, who as governor of Arkansas supported a failed attempt to extend in-state tuition and scholarships to the children of illegal immigrants. Huckabee has said he does not believe students should be punished for crimes committed by their parents.

[Rockitz]

I'm not a Romney guy, but this is good to see from a top tier candidate.

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

If you believe he will not flip flop, he seems to flip too often!

[Rockitz]

We’ve had a number of campaign trail conversions on this issue, but I’m pretty sure it is permanent in both Romney’s and Thompson’s cases. Can’t say the same for the Huckster.

[EagleUSA]

Talk is cheap when it comes from pols. As we know, they will say ANYTHING to get elected. God, just look at Hillary....what a disgusting display of everything evil and dishonest.

[freespirited]

Huckabee has said he does not believe students should be punished for crimes committed by their parents.

Fair enough, but they should not be rewarded for those crimes either.

[George W. Bush]

Mitt lands a solid punch on Huck, feints at Rudi.

[broncobilly]

he seems to flip too often!

---

Well, it is turning out to Mr. Flip or Mr. Flop or Mr. Giuliani. Which is it going to be?

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

It should be Hunter with Thompson next, Rudy or Romney are certain to lose to any democrat.

Doubtful if either can even carry their own state!

[fantom]

Rudy has never lost to a dem . Romney should be managing a lexus dealership , Fred is to old , huck is a religious fanatic from the south , McCain is , (well you know ). Hunter is great but has no dough. Other than that the pubs are in great shape. Rudy is certain to lose with the far right , but will do well with the others. He can tame the beast. I am not saying we should vote for him , but i saw how he put together a victory in the peoples republic of ny. He is a winner , like it or not.

[HuntsvilleTxVeteran]

If Rudy or Romney wins the RNC/DNC/MSM nomination, goodbye America.

Hello to a one party system “the Republicrat Party”.

[Logical me]

Talk is cheap when it comes from pols. As we know, they will say ANYTHING to get elected. God, just look at Hillary....what a disgusting display of everything evil and dishonest.

Can you blame them for saying anything. When these candidates have to deal with a 2/3 of American brain dead, how else could they get elected. Most Americans I believe are so consumed with toys and the rest with survival they have no time to really go any further than surface garbage. The political machines, to get elected, just have to try anything. Much of the blame has to be on the MSM, and schools including the worst of all, our higher educational radical institutions.

[EagleUSA]

Most Americans I believe are so consumed with toys and the rest with survival they have no time to really go any further than surface garbage. The political machines, to get elected, just have to try anything.
:::::::
People (a good percentage) have a real problem with priorities. This mixed with selfishness, ignorance and flat-out stupidity are a huge problem for America and the entire election and governmental process. If you give a key to the hen house to a fox, lots of chickens will get eaten. There is no accountability because THE PEOPLE ARE IGNORING THE GOVERNMENT THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE WORKING FOR THEM and it has run amuck. It is totally out of control and has degenerated to nothing but a bunch of thugs fighting over who gets to control whatever. And the responsibility for this stops with the American voter and citizen.

People get the govenment THEY DESERVE. And that is the sickening debacle we are watching right now that is so bad, it permits thugs and grifters like the Clintons to even get near our White House...let alone be a President. It is horrifying.

[Logical me]

Absolutely right!!!!!! And it has been that way for many centuries. Any surprises? It is always been a crap shoot. Sometimes we get lucky, and sometimes we don’t. Power, corruption, greed has always been with us in politics.

[imahawk]

It’s pure pandering and that is all.Look at the track records of these rinos.They are full of excrement.

[org.whodat]

I'm not a Romney guy, but this is good to see from a top tier candidate.

But it could have been on the flop side of the flip. LOL

[broncobilly]

I agree that Hunter has great ideas and has been an outstanding congressman. But do you think he could carry his own state? I doubt it. And just because a person is a great congressman doesn’t make them a good president. He doesn’t have the executive skills or the private sector background to be a good president. His military background is very good, however. After Bush, we need a president who can communicate and knows how to get the message out. That is not Hunter, even though he would probably be better than Bush. I feel that if a person can’t run a good campaign, they probably will not be able to run a good administration.

[Vigilanteman]

Rudy has never lost to a dem .

He ducked two chances to run against Hitlery. He does not differ with her on illegal immigration. In fact, he doesn't differ with her on much of anything except:

1. He sees a need for a national defense and the war on terrorism.

2. He understands the need for a healthy private sector: to generate tax revenues for the nanny state.

These are important differences, but not sufficient reason to support him. He will move the country leftward only a little slower than Hitlery.

[redgirlinabluestate]

Mitt lands a solid punch on Huck ping!

[JTC1767]

Please provide us with the dates and the issues he changed positions on.
You can skip his pro-life conversion, we already know about that.

[Dante3]

Rudy is just all talk when it comes to national defense. If he cared, he would take a different position on illegal aliens and immigration.

[claudiustg]

This is good to hear; we don’t need anymore bleed off to the Huckleberry.

[seekthetruth]

Right! So Hucabee says an student who is a child of illegals should get a break on tuition in his state, but a child of US citizens from any other state should not.

[Liz]

Self-styled War on Terror candidate Giuliani's idea of "border security."

DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY MAP----TERRORIST ENTRY POINTS

MAP OF TEXAS-CANADA-MEXICO TRADE CORRIDOR BROKERED BY Bracewell & Giuliani
Properties for the lucrative US-Canada-Mexico "Trade Road Corridor" were taken from US taxpayers by eminent
domain and given to foreign bankers.

CONSTRUCTON OF TRADE ROAD IN MEXICO

Bracewell & Giuliani Firm Advises Cintra in First Privatization of Toll Road in Texas

DALLAS (March 1, 2007) Bracewell & Giuliani LLP (Texas-based law firm with global connections) advised Cintra Concesiones de Infraestructuras de Transporte, S.A., a Spanish transportation company, in its successful bid to develop State Highway 121 into a toll road through Collin and Denton counties.

The award to Cintra, approved by the Texas Transportation Commission, is the first privatization of a Texas toll road. Bracewell is acting as project counsel to Cintra with respect to the 50-year concession from the Texas Department of Transportation. Cintra will pay a $2.1 billion upfront and annual lease payments totaling $700 million. "Cintra was awarded this project because of its proven expertise and competitive proposal," said Thomas O. Moore, partner with Bracewell & Giuliani. "This is the largest transportation deal of 2007. This is one of only five deals in the country." http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1803916/posts

[Dante3]

BUMP

[Liz]

GIULIANI'S HOMELAND PICK ENDORSES LICENSING ILLEGALS Some 80% of Americans oppose licensing illegals----opposition that unites the political spectrum. Hillary Clinton was backed into a corner when she flubbed her debate answer to the nitwit plan. So far, she has taken five different positions on the issue.

==================================================== GIULIANI'S HOMELAND PICK ENDORSES LICENSING ILLEGALS In October 2007, licensing illegals hit the headlines when NY state Gov Spitzer announced his plan to license illegals---a move that was expected to sail through the process. Spitzer then rounded up the usual suspects---hyphenate suckups eager to facilitate vote-fraud.

In a statement released by Spitzer’s office October 2007, Chief Bratton endorsed the licensing plan, saying: "As former Commissioner of the New York City Police Department and now Chief of the Los Angeles Police Department (since 2002), I support efforts that have the potential to solve crimes and improve traffic safety."

THE MONEY QUOTE: "That’s why I backed legislation in California that would give undocumented immigrants the ability to get a driver’s license once they have provided proof of their identification. "

Bratton continues: "It is my belief that by doing that you would reduce the number of hit and runs and increase the number of insured motorists on the road. We would also now have undocumented immigrants’ identifying information on record such as photographs and addresses which could prove helpful in the fight against crime and terrorism. "

SOURCE http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/bratton-endorses-spitzer-drivers-license-plan/

In a recent NY magazine interview, Rudy Giuliani expressed his willingness to appoint Bratton as Homeland Security Secretary in a Giuliani admin. Earlier, in a hissy fit over Bratton's high media profile, Mayor Rudy had fired Bratton as NYC police chief b/c Bratton was standing in Rudy's spotlight. Giulini is now seeking to burnish his tarnished image, and to suckup to his former enemy, Bratton, with the enticing quid pro quo of the Homeland Cabinet job.

[stephenjohnbanker]

” And that is the sickening debacle we are watching right now that is so bad, it permits thugs and grifters like the Clintons to even get near our White House...let alone be a President. It is horrifying.”

Yes it is!

[stephenjohnbanker]

“In a recent NY magazine interview, Rudy Giuliani expressed his willingness to appoint Bratton as Homeland Security Secretary in a Giuliani admin. Earlier, in a hissy fit over Bratton’s high media profile, Mayor Rudy had fired Bratton as NYC police chief b/c Bratton was standing in Rudy’s spotlight. Giulini is now seeking to burnish his tarnished image, and to suckup to his former enemy, Bratton, with the enticing quid pro quo of the Homeland Cabinet job.”

Rudy is a real low life!

[redgirlinabluestate]

I like Hunter a lot and he has been an outstanding congressman for us here in San Diego. We look forward to his son serving us in the future. However, it seems there are freepers on these threads who don’t like any of the candidates, or they like a candidate who can’t possibly win. That doesn’t sound conservative to me; it sounds suicidal.

[Dante3]

I have noticed it also. Maybe they are pretending to be conservatives? Hunter is an excellent choice and so is Tancredo.

[WFTR]

Romney said Saturday he did not think students who are in the U.S. legally should be denied discounted tuition, even if their parents are illegal, but that "people that are here illegally should not be able to get a tuition break that allows illegals to have tuition that's lower than the children of our citizens."

This statement bothers me. The scenario that seems most likely to lead to children being legal while their parents are illegal is the "anchor baby" scenario, and I'd like to see that situation changed. If a woman is in the country illegally, then any children born to her while she's here should not be U.S. citizens and should not become legal. While I agree that we shouldn't punish children for the crimes of their parents, we shouldn't bend policy to keep the crimes of parents from having a negative impact on their children's lives. In fact, if the impact on a child is the only thing that keeps a parent from committing a crime, then that impact is a good deterrent.

Otherwise, I'm also glad to see Mr. Romney taking these positions. I like Mr. Romney, but I still favor Duncan Hunter while Duncan Hunter is in the race. If Mr. Romney will take more of these conservative stands, I'll feel better switching to him when I give up on Duncan Hunter.

Bill

[redgirlinabluestate]

Look at the track records

Please do. Romney has a great track record, even though he was governor in a state with a relatively small illegal alien population, and, in spite of the fact that illegal entry is, predominantly, a Federal issue. It's not an issue that has a huge impact on his state.

However, he still took concrete pro-enforcement actions way back in 2003. That indicates he had the right mind-set even before the illegals marched in our streets or he was running for President.

He acted to deny illegals driver's license, in-state tuition breaks, demanded English immersion in school and figured out a way through ICE that state troopers could work with ICE to arrest illegals.

The Romney Record:

Governor Romney opposed a bill that would have allowed illegal aliens to get driver’s licenses. "Those who are here illegally should not receive tacit support from our government that gives an indication of legitimacy," the governor said, echoing arguments that opponents have voiced in the Commonwealth and in other states considering similar license measures. "If they are here illegally, they should not get driver's licenses," he said. (Scott S. Greenberger, "Romney Stand Dims Chances Of License For Undocumented," The Boston Globe, 10/28/03)

Romney vetoed a bill in 2004 that would have permitted illegal aliens to pay the same in-state tuition rate paid by Massachusetts citizens at public colleges and universities in the state. (Office Of The Governor, "Romney Signs $22.402B Fiscal Year 2005 'No New Tax' Budget," Press Release, 6/25/04)

Romney arranged a federal and state agreement enabling Massachusetts State Troopers to investigate immigration status and arrest illegal aliens they encounter during the normal course of their duties. (Troopers would arrest immigrants, Boston Globe, 6/21/2006) • (Governor Romney, ICE Sign Immigration Enforcement Pact, 12/13/2006) • (Video: Maricopa County Sheriff Arpaio debates LULAC spokesman about MA pact with ICE)

Governor Romney fought efforts to weaken Massachusetts' English Immersion Law. "But yesterday, Romney press secretary Shawn Feddeman said the governor will fight all attempts to slow the implementation of English immersion, known on the ballot as Question 2. ...He will veto anything that weakens or delays English immersion, Feddeman said." (Anand Vaishnav, "Romney Firm On English Timetable," The Boston Globe, 1/24/03)

Governor Romney increased funding by nearly 30% ($8 million) in Fiscal Year 2006 for English as a Second Language, adult literacy and adult secondary education for legal immigrants residing in Massachusetts. The increase enabled statewide adult basic education programs to accommodate approximately 4,000 more students each year. (Romney Expands Adult Basic Education for Immigrants, January 28, 2005)

Romney signed a Memorandum Of Agreement with the federal government allowing Massachusetts State Troopers to investigate immigration status and enforce federal immigration laws. The agreement included authority to arrest illegal aliens encountered during the normal course of their duties. (Office of Gov. Mitt Romney, "Governor Romney, ICE Sign Immigration Enforcement Pact," Press Release, 12/13/2006) • (Video: Maricopa County Sheriff Arpaio debates LULAC spokesman about MA pact with ICE)

Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio was named as Honorary Chair for the Romney for President campaign in Arizona. Sheriff Arpaio, better known as "America’s Toughest Sheriff", has gained a nationwide reputation for his tough stance on crime, illegal immigration and border security in the nation's fourth largest county. "I like him," Arpaio said of Mitt Romney. "He's a man of principle, of good character. He did a great job in Massachusetts and I feel he's going to make a great president."

"I'm sure the governor believes in my philosophy too," Arpaio said. "He sure would not be asking for my endorsement if he didn't believe in what I'm doing." (Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio Tells FOX News Why Mitt Romney Picked Him for Presidential Campaign, Fox News, Feb. 28, 2007)

Video: Sheriff Arpaio Explains Why He Endorses Mitt Romney For President, Fox News Video: Neil Cavuto Interviews Sheriff Arpaio About Mitt Romney Endorsement (McCain, Giuliani, Hunter, and Tancredo mentioned) Links to videos HERE & Romney Immigration Plan

[kabar]

Romney said Saturday he did not think students who are in the U.S. legally should be denied discounted tuition, even if their parents are illegal, but that "people that are here illegally should not be able to get a tuition break that allows illegals to have tuition that's lower than the children of our citizens."

Silly statement. If the children are legally here, they can't be denied their rights as US citizens.

We need to find out what policy Romney has towards the 12 to 20 million illegal aliens already here. Does he favor legalizing their status? What are his views on chain migration? We need to be very careful about what the candidates say about immigration. You must parse their words to determine where they really stand. The MSM won't ask the right questions to distinguish between the candidates on where they stand on the issue.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Run Hard to the Right in the Primary!

Mitt’s running as far right as he can. Amazingly,
people believe everything he says as if he means
it. He means it every bit as much as Nixon.

[kabar]

This statement bothers me. The scenario that seems most likely to lead to children being legal while their parents are illegal is the "anchor baby" scenario, and I'd like to see that situation changed. If a woman is in the country illegally, then any children born to her while she's here should not be U.S. citizens and should not become legal.

Until we change birthright citizenship, we have no choice but to treat those born here as US citizens with all of the rights that entails. Legally, we can't do anything else. Romney's statement is just stating the obvious for that reason.

[kabar]

What is Romney’s position on how we should handle the 12 to 20 million illegals already here? Do MA state law enforcment officials have 287 [g] authority? Inquiring minds want to know.

[redgirlinabluestate]

Click link in #31 - you can see a detailed desription of his plan there. He opposes the Z visa which confers immediate illegal status to the illegals indefinitely. That is the bottomline. We can never support anyone who supports the Z visa -- or anything like it. That is amnesty.

He supports deporting felon illegals immediately and denying social service funds to any other illegals. He supports an employment ID plan and heavy fines on the employers who continue to hire illegals. He supports finishing the fence and securing the border to slow or cut off the flow of illegal aliens permanently.

• Secure the Border

• Implement An Enforceable Employer Verification System.

• Reject Amnesty.

• Punish Sanctuary Cities.

• Oppose Any Special Benefits For Illegal Immigrants.

• Promote State And Local Partnerships With Federal Immigration Officials.

• Improve Interior Enforcement

[Leisler]

Romney;"..(anchor baby ) students (should) get discounted tuition..."

Bull S**t.

"..but.. illegal (students) should.. get.. tuition "

WTF?

First of all. Stop with all the money for tuition from Federal or state. There is no reason truck drivers, waitresses, plumbers and thousands of others should have one single tax dollar burden for an adult going to college or skiing in the Swiss Alps. If you are 18, you are an adult. Work, borrow, sign the papers, join the military, hit up your parents if you want to go to get a theater degree, or a Woman Studies, or African Studies or any other freek'n degree. If you want to go into debt for a useless degree, fine. I'm happy. Best of luck. But pay for it your self.

Second, public universities and colleges are supported by tax dollars. Why should American citizens have to work a day harder, longer, away from their families to subsidies illegals? Jeeshe.

Thanks Mitt. More subsidies for the racked education industry that has a cost growth rate second only to health care. Gee, wonder why? Hum, could it be because of all the government money? Nah.

More subsidies, more taxes. Plus or minus, tip and toe.

[curiosity]

We need to find out what policy Romney has towards the 12 to 20 million illegal aliens already here. Does he favor legalizing their status?

Although, like Thompson, he seemed to favor some legalization as recently as 2005, he's come around against it and appears to be endorsing an attrition policy, though not as explicitly as Fred.

What are his views on chain migration?

He hasn't said much about this. I've seen hints that the wants to change our legal immigration policy to a more skill-based approach, which would shut down chain migration, but he hasn't talked that much about it.

Thompson has explicitly come out against chain migration. I'd like to see Fred challange Mitt on the issue.

[curiosity]

BTW, I say this as a Romney supporter. I wouldn't be horribly dissapointed if Fred got the nomination, but I think Mitt is the better candidate, despite him not being quite as good as Fred on immigration.

[redgirlinabluestate]

That is not true. Romney's record is strong and he's made much more definitive statements on the issue. To date, I still haven't heard Fred reject the Z-visa.
http://grades.betterimmigration.com/testgrades.php3?District=TN&VIPID=743&retired=1

[redgirlinabluestate]

Hello! He's already denied tuition breaks to illegals. He's saying you cannot deny the breaks to anchor baby citizens which all other citizens are entitled to (unless, you amend the Constitution first).

It is my guess, that he gave that answer (obvious, that it is ) in response to a direct question on that topic.

[kabar]

Click link in #31 - you can see a detailed desription of his plan there. He opposes the Z visa which confers immediate illegal status to the illegals indefinitely. That is the bottomline. We can never support anyone who supports the Z visa -- or anything like it. That is amnesty.

I clicked on the link. Thanks. I am a little concerned about what Romney says about how he would treat the 12 to 20 million {or more} illegal aliens already in this country. Specifically, the Romney position states,

For the 12+ million illegal aliens in the country now, Romney favors immediate deportation of convicted criminal illegal aliens and deportation of illegal aliens who refuse to get off public welfare assistance. For the remaining illegal aliens already in the country, Romney would support offering a temporary work visa, with biometric identification data, to facilitate reasonable attrition in returning the illegal aliens to their home countries The temporary work visa would be required to remain in the country and employed, but would not be renewable. The illegal aliens who decide to stay and apply for the temporary visa must return to their home country after the term of the temporary visa expires (for example, 6 months). They would be eligible to apply for U.S. citizenship from their home country and would enter the process at the back of the line behind all other current applicants.

Allowing illegal aliens who broke our law by entering illegally, committing ID theft, not paying taxes, etc. to be rewarded with temporary visas is wrong and it is compounded by making them eligible to apply for US citizenship from their home country. And it is not practical. I have no idea what reasonable attrition means. What happens after the six month, non-renewable temporary visa expires? This sounds like the Mike Pence flim flam to modify comprehensive immigration reform. An illegal alien would be crazy to apply for such a visa that would identify him and his whereabouts and force him to leave the country in six months. Anytime I see back of the line and path to citizenship, I know we are talking about amnesty.

Governor Romney (on chain migration): "My view is that we should not have a policy in our immigration structure that says that if a child is born here to illegal immigrants then, by right, the entire family is brought in based upon that child’s citizenship. That does not require a change in law either constitutionally or through other means and can be adopted through policy."

Romney is not challenging birthright citizenship, just that he can't sponsor the entire family. Under current law, a child born here to illegal aliens cannot sponsor anyone until age 21. Romney doesn't see to understand that point based on his statement.

[redgirlinabluestate]

Governor Romney (on chain migration): "My view is that we should not have a policy in our immigration structure that says that if a child is born here to illegal immigrants then, by right, the entire family is brought in based upon that child’s citizenship. That does not require a change in law either constitutionally or through other means and can be adopted through policy."

Earlier this year, Romney said he was studying whether birthright citizenship could be ended legislatively -- as some of his supporters believe -- or whether it would take an amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Kmiec, who served as a constitutional legal counsel to former Presidents Reagan and Bush, said that someone who enters the U.S. illegally, and has not renounced the citizenship of the country from which he or she has emigrated, is not subject to the complete jurisdiction of the United States.

One of Romney’s most outspoken supporters on Capitol Hill -- Rep. Phil Gingrey, R-Ga. -- shares Kmiec's assessment that Congress likely has the power to end birthright citizenship through legislation. "Romney Eyeing End to Birthright Citizenship"

[kabar]

Here is Fred's plan. It is the most detailed and best plan of any candidate so far.

[redgirlinabluestate]

See link in # 43 — which was also available in #31.

[broncobilly]

I agree.

[kabar]

A child born of illegal aliens cannot sponsor anyone until he/she is 21. Romney has not come out against birthright citizenship. I guess he will study it some more.

[Leisler]

I live in Massachusetts.

Mitt would of, but never denied in state tuition breaks to illegals. It never came before him as Governor. Talk radio and citizen anger sunk the Massachusetts Legislature's plan to enact a bill. The Legislature never did, they backed down and the bill was never voted upon.

Mitt was late to the anger party, if you will.

Anyways.

Public universities and collages are tax supported. Illegals do and can go to them. And thus receive a subsidy from the taxpayer. Matter of fact, if you come here, you will pay out of state tuition. An illegal pays in-state tuition. You pay more as an American citizen. Nice.

Mitt did nothing about this. It is still the case, and lawful today. Illegals are going to Massachusetts state schools, and paying the same tax supported, subsidized cost as tax paying citizens.

This is wrong. Mitt did nothing, zero, zilch, nada.

[kabar]

ABC News' Teddy Davis Reports: Republican presidential hopeful Mitt Romney backs an end to the policy known as chain migration but he has not yet reached a conclusion on the more controversial question of whether the United States should end birthright citizenship for children born in the United States to illegal immigrants.

"On the birthright citizenship issue, we're still looking at it," Romney adviser Eric Fehrnstrom told ABC News.

[redgirlinabluestate]

I am sure his plan is just fine. I'd put him on the good side on immigration, right after Tancredo, Hunter, and Romney. He made a few wishy washy statements earlier and his numbersusa.com grade is a C overall. However, given his alliance with Shamnesty McCain, do we trust the old Fred or the new plan?

Plus, you can have all the great plans in the world, but you have to be able to beat Rudy and then Hillary.

But like curiosity said, I'd be fine with Fred. His immigration plan has to be better than McCain's or Rudy's.