Posted on 11/26/2007 4:14:57 PM PST by LibWhacker
MILWAUKEE
Some 5,400 Harley-Davidson Inc. workers are out of work this week as the motorcycle maker cuts production because of falling sales.
The Milwaukee-based company announced in September it would shut down production at plants in Wisconsin, Kansas City, Mo., and York, Pa., this week as part of a planned cut in production.
A shorter layoff is better than a long one, said Frank Larkin, a spokesman for the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, which represents workers at Harley-Davidson plants. At least workers were able to prepare for it, he said.
"We were informed early on this was being proposed and we were able to relate to our members they would need to begin planning financially for one week without a paycheck," he said.
(Excerpt) Read more at businessweek.com ...
I know machines. I can fix things. I like machines I can fix. I like machines I don't have to fix better. I'm a big fan of my current car, on which I've only had to raise the hood to add windshield washer fluid.
Nope.
Only a couple models I'd even consider IF the price was right and they'd be down the list of several other bikes.
I love Valkyries and the looks of Triumph Rocket III's.
Then, we can look at Nomads, Stratoliners (replace those butt ugly stock bags!), Roadstars, Ventures, VTX's, Concourse, and then a couple Victory models.
Then I'd consider HD Heritage Special, a couple of the new Dyna models (I do like a six speed tranny), or a Softtail.
Riding is important to me. Riding a Harley isn't.
I don't need the 'me too, me too' aspect of it; don't need some sort of artificial ego lift from the name on my bike.
I didn't "settle" for a Jap POS....I chose what I currently ride....and trust me, after returning from Iraq (even after my ex blew a good portion of it) could afford any ride I wanted.
But fwiw, riding a HD would also mean being identified with people like you, and that is the biggest turn off for people like me.
BTW, if you've never ridden an inline 4 1000 cc engine you don't know anything about smooth quiet speed and acceleration. My ZL 1000 will put a REAL smile on your face with 0-60 in 3 seconds.
But trust me, my Roadstar 1700 doesn't do poorly either, much to the surprise and chagrin of my HD riding associates! :>
I normally don’t get into the HD vs Jap conversations simply because it gets worse than debating religion.
I don’t care what one rides (ok, except for that guy I knew with a Hysong 250 that thought he was something! and even then it was more him than the bike!) but I’m not a brand follower.
As for Roadstars being such a good imitation that they get a pass, I’d say that when an imitation surpasses the original then it is no longer an imitation. Take the brand badges off both bikes and the Roadstar wins.
For resale you have to put the badges back on and then resale only matters to someone interested in owning HD.
But I’ll let you ‘sell’ me on HD if you can....your only chances would be with some softail or dyna models, or a Heritage Special. I wouldn’t even consider a sportster, Road King, ‘glide models.
Hints: Identifying with 1%ers doesn’t matter, being the black sheep of the flock (HD ad) doesn’t matter. I don’t barhop in a biker costume on weekends. I ride daily; sometimes ride with a group (member of a national RC), most often alone. I don’t spend hours polishing chrome and prefer riding to washing. And I don’t need/want a thousand brand name items to advertise how ‘cool’ I think I am.
So why would I want to buy a HD instead of a Nomad, Roadstar, or something similar?
What do you think of the new Connie?
If I could convince my wife she'd be comfy behind me on one...!
We’ll start with the basic mechanical principles. Be patient this first part, because everything I’m going to cover also applies to roadstars/warriors. But I think I can make the case that HD and roadstar/warrior is the way to go. Moto guzzi and BMW aircooled twins are good too even though they don’t have all the ideal mechanical attributes.
1. First of all, Belt drive is the best thing there is. Period. Shaft drive has some good qualities, but just isn’t quite as good as belt drive. Chain drive is very close to belt drive, and even slightly superior in terms of strength and efficiency, but it’s noisy and not as maintenance free.
2. The V-twin engine is not the ideal engine configuration for power, balance, smoothness, etc. But it is the best configuration known for cramming the largest displacement engine into a bicycle/motorcycle type frame. Ergonomically, a 45 Vtwin is the best compromise there is. I am a fan of low RPM torque, not horsepower. And to generate low RPM torque, you need lots of cubic inches. Number of cylinders is irrelevent. High revving capability is pointless.
3. Dry sump oil system is best. The heaviest part of the drive train is the crankshaft. A motorcycle handles the best when it’s center of mass is as low as possible. When I talk about handling, I don’t give a dam about what the crotch rocket guys think about. Taking banked curves on a racetrack at 130MPH is not what I care about. I care about tight radius Uturns in parking lots, dodging chuckholes, barking dogs, and soccermoms in traffic at 20-40MPH, and occasional jaunts on gravel roads. A dry sump oil system lacks an oil pan under the crankshaft and thus the crankshaft can be positioned closer to the pavement without worry of punching a whole in the pan and losing all your oil.
4. Over head valves are the way to go. The trend these days is for overhead cams and multi valves per cylinder. This is pure nonsense. I say this because overhead cams do not provide any advantage for low RPM torque. All they do is add unnecessary expense and complication. There are other reasons to shun overhead cams. They add height to the engine and thus reduce the cubic inch displacement of the engine in a givin engine space provided by the bicycle/motorcycle frame configuration. Also, when it is time to do a rebore...it is a snap with a pushrod engine. Just pull the head off and slide the cylinder up and off the piston. With overhead cams, you have the timing belt/chain to deal with. A flat head would be even better by my criteria, but the contorted combustion chamber shape may not be suitable for todays emission standards. I don’t know enough about combustion to make a judgement here.
5. Air cooled is superior because it makes a tighter, compact package in a tight space. Add an oil cooler if you are worried about heat. Also, when you are talking about slow revving torque motors, heat becomes much less of an issue. So water jackets are unnecessary and a waste of space and expense. Water jackets also make a rebore much more of a headache because a water cooled motor typically has the cylinder and crankcase cast in one “block”(aka cylinderblock).
6. THe mild steel cradle frame(like a bicycle) is superior for welded repairs and modificatons. It also tends to be the best option for optimizing the “low center of gravity” concept and also to create the narrowest possible configuration. THe narrower the bike is, the more comfortable it is. The Ducati “trellis-frame” is pretty good but it adds width...not good and you sacrifice accessibility to the engine. THe spine frame of the old honda silverwing was a very good idea. But it wouldn’t work as good on a harley engine. THe pre-rubber mount sportster frame was the best in my opinion, but it would require extensive mods to make a larger motor fit in it. The FXR frame was very good too. If I had plenty of time and money on my hands, I’d try building a harley out of an old FXR frame and a modern twincam motor from a glide or roadking(short primary like the fxr).
7. It sucks when the manufacturer completely changes the whole bike every 3 years or so. Harleys are the best at being “backwards compatible”. Goldwings, BMW boxers, and yamaha roadstars are pretty good in this regard. Although, as time goes on, harley is getting less and less impressive in this department.
8. It’s nice when a manufacturer uses the same parts for various models. ON a harley, all models use similar brakes, lights, handlebars controls and grips, foot pegs, electronics, etc. Unfortuneatly, harley seems to be getting away from this in recent years. THis is not a good sign.
9. Large slow revving torque motors are the most fuel efficient. Harleys are rated for 40 to 50 MPG despite their large displacement. No jap bikes of comparable torqe output and displacement can match a harley for fuel economy. This slow revving large displacement concept is call the “aircraft principle” because it was originally utilized in old fashioned aircraft motors. American automotive engines used to follow the same principal, but not anymore.
Its serious machine, but these days I like to get a bike set up the way I like it and then ride it forever. If I was looking for a new ride, it would be top of my list.
My wife rides her own bike (PC800) so I don't have to worry about passenger creature comforts.
Now that’s music to my ears.
Must have been tough not having a house. ;-)
1) Belt is not superior to shaft, my experience is the reverse, esp for longevity. Belts are in fact a compromise between the efficiency of a chain vs the longevity and low maintenance of shaft.
2) Low RPM torque is not always the best answer. Inlines work as well as Vs in a *standard frame*
3) Dry sumps are not really an advantage, have minimal CG impact. Most bike do not have them, esp those who make higher demands on the motors.
The increased safe maneuverability range of lighter bikes is not just for 130MPG banked turns. They are also better in the scenarios you describe.
4) You statement on valve train choices is based on low RPM torque being the ideal, something many would not agree on.
5) Water cooled is vastly superior when it comes to controlling engine temp in a wide variety of environments. Also helps with pollution controls. The BMW airheads do okay in extreme heat situations that I have seen more than one HD overheat in, even with an oil cooler. That includes both rush hour and desert environment. Also the water cooled engines last longer (less thermal stress). If air cooled is the answer why is it dying out? I agree its less hassle on maintenance, but that is about its only charm
6) Your frame comments ignore several other approaches, that are all valid. The modifiable frame may matter for OCC, but most riders understand that modifying geometry is not a recipe for success. The OCC bikes are barely ridable due to their oddball geometry done for appearance and not performance.
7) This is about the only fully valid comment you have made. A stable platform really does help with the aftermarket suppliers. FWIW, Kawi did the with the Concours. Got some kudos and some japes for it. The real question is if a bike needs that much in aftermarket parts for things other than cosmetics, I would hope the manufacturer would update the design and fix things
8) Most manufacturers share parts for reason of economics. In the MC world, many of those come from subs. The primes have to follow the subs, since no one prime can really afford to be the only company using a large quantity of parts.
9) Take a look at independent analysis of fuel economy...air cooled rarely wins over water cooled. Also look at the real world. Ive already addressed the low RPM torque as not always being the most desirable.
Your vision of the ideal bike is clearly different than mine. I ride almost daily in traffic, do my own maintenance (always have), and have put 20K miles a year on MCs for the last decade. I have found the maneuverability of the lighter more sportier bikes to be a significant advantage over cruisers, along with water cooling and a broad power band. Large amount of low end torque is not a key issue is a bike, I know how to handle a clutch.
Shaft is a horse theif. It’s only real advantage is being sealed up and protected from environment. You still have to change the oil once in awhile. Belt IS superior to shaft. it’s simpler, cheaper, and does a better job with fewer moving parts. The belt is just stretchy enough that it acts as it’s own shock load damper. Chain and shaft drive require a rubber “cush drive” gizmo somewhere to accomplish this. If for some reason, you trash a shaft drive assembly, you’re screwed. If you somehow trash a belt, no big deal. A new belt is cheap.
Inlines do not work as well as Vs in a regular frame. A fool can see why.
Every one of your points is false to some degree. I’ll adress the rest later...got things to do. My post wasn’t addressed to you anyway. Your bottled up hate for harleys and contempt for harley fans is obvious. It’s probably a waste of time for me to educate you, since you’ve already decided harley riders are idiots and you’re a genius, but I’ll do it anyway because That’s the way I am.
Just about everything you have said can be reasonably countered.
http://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/kawasaki/kawasaki_zl1000_86.htm
I have a 1987 model of one of these as well as my V-twin cruiser.
4 cylinder DOHC, water cooled, shaft driven, 1000 cc, all in a standard frame.
It idles smoothly so unlike HD’s I can use my mirror at stops.
It accelerates better an any production V twin and has more roll on from 60 to 90 than any V twin, so I don’t worry about sneers from those who don’t know better. They sit back and read my license plate as it gets smaller.
My biggest beef with it on the highway is that it is hard to keep down at the speed limit and then it isn’t very passenger friendly.
But your arguments for the V twin still don’t sell me on why I should go with HD instead of any of the other companies that have made improvements on what HD made popular.
Adidas made specialized name brand sport shoes popular but Nike stole the market. Most don’t know that they were once the cheap knock offs.
My Harley riding friends have their reasons for their rides. Their reasons don’t influence me.
So since I’m not buying tradition or image or ‘buy American’, please convince me why should I buy HD instead of one of the improved models?
I should have at least convinced you that your roadstar is superior to your eliminator for most things. I’m not done yet. There’s more coming. Keep your panties on.
I have neither hate nor contempt for Harleys or cruisers in general, nor their owners. I've owned them, probably still have one in the stable is Shewolf had decreed we would have but one bike each. However riding style and preferences does not change the physics and other real world aspects of motorcycling. I suggest you are the closed minded one.
Apples to pears.
The Roadstar can’t keep up with the Eliminator in any way other than doing 85 forever.
The Eliminator is quicker, faster, and more agile.
The Roadstar is more comfy for the passenger and fits in better with the groups I ride with, and right now I’m where I can only have one bike with me, so it is the Roadstar.
But if you’ve never had 110 hp under you....well, if I have to explain it you’d never understand it LOL~!
Wow, this is a real shocker, people cant now afford 15-20k+ for (Nostalgic Technology) Harleys.
But quarter mile acceleration is a minor part of the equation. Zero to 40 is most important in real life city driving. ON the highway, probably top gear 50 to 70 is pretty important too. Other than that I don’t really care. I like being able to chug up a steep hill in high gear at 1400 RPMs with a passenger, and then accelerate from there without downshifting.
Cant do that with a kaw eliminator.
like being able to chug up a steep hill in high gear at 1400 RPMs with a passenger, and then accelerate from there without downshifting.
First, who cares?
Second, if you're going up in high gear at 1400 rpm it ain't a steep hill.
Third, the Eliminatator will kick the stock HD butt in every performance metric there is.
But when you know that 20 year old Jap Crap has better performance than your, ahem, modern HD, then you got to find something pretty useless to brag about.
So, found any way to sell me on a Harley for my next bike?
Second, if you’re going up in high gear at 1400 rpm it ain’t a steep hill.
~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes it is. I do it all the time.
And it’s hardly useless, there slick. It’s called flexibility. In the old days, before the fools were taken in by RPMs, motor vehicles were judged by the useful speed RANGE they could operate in while using only top gear.
Now, I would say to you that anyone that buys a vehicle for it’s performance abilities much above 100MPH is an immature moron. Since you’ve decided to be a jackass, I suppose there’s no point in continuing this discussion. Especially since you’ve essentially just called me a liar.
Happy cycling to you and goodbye.
My wife drives a jap pos.....made in Nebraska.
If you ride, your alright in my book. In fact, if I were gonna ride to say, Las Vegas, I think ridin a space age Gold wing might well be the way to go.
Looks like a lazy boy...with wheels. Intergalactic of coarse. hehe.
Blessings,
SB777
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