Posted on 12/16/2007 1:01:26 PM PST by greyfoxx39
Oh I don't know, killing every man women and child who wasn't an Israeli? Is there anything more racist than that?
You got your Prophets mixed up. It was Spencer W. Kimball who issued Delcaration 2.
Oh, I thought you were the EXPERT on Mormonism. I guess you just proved you're not.
Oh, I thought you were the EXPERT on Mormonism. I guess you just proved you're not.
Oops :( You are correct and I was wrong. I do make mistakes occasionally. I am not very good at remembering and associating names for some reason.
Could you please provide a source that the change in church policy was made reluctantly? It was a joyful day for almost every member of the church when that revelation was announced to the world.
They certainly didn't do it eagerly. The Racist Prophet Brigham Young had been dead 100 years before the NCAA was able to convince the Mormon leaders that it was time to either get a new revelation from God or own a major university with absolutely no accredidation or sports program.
It was a joyful day for almost every member of the church when that revelation was announced to the world.
Why was that?
What was "wrong" with the way things were before?
Didn't God tell Joseph Smith and Brigham Young not to ordain Black Men?
Didn't God tell them that Black men were cursed with the black skin because they had been less valiant in the pre-existence and thus not entitled to receive the priesthood in this life?
Did you guys feel guilty that God had been a racist for so long and now you were relieved when God decided that he didn't want to be a racist anymore?
I don't understand the relief, unless you believed that the Mormon Church had been teaching false doctrine for 150 years and then suddenly got a revelation from God correcting all the True Prophets of God who had promulgated this doctrine.
Please show your source for this. Your post is full of your own personal opinion which is counter to the facts of the situation. There was pressure put on the church for a time but that pressure had almost completely gone away at the time of the revelation. I'm sure that the pressure would have eventually come back and I'm sure that the church leadership was aware of that.
In case you didn't know, it was David O McKay who first asked the Lord to rescind the ban. That was in the 1950's after he made a trip to South Africa. He was appalled at what he saw there. Nobody knows exactly why the Lord waited until 1978. My own personal feeling is that there were still pockets of racism in the church and the Lord was waiting for peoples hearts to change so that when the ban was lifted that blacks would be truly welcomed. There are many black men and women serving in leadership positions around the world. It is only a matter of time before blacks will be called as general authorities. I wouldn't be surprised if one day in the not too distant future a black man will be called to the quorum of the twelve.
I agree there are Mormons (as well as every other religion I know of) who may not fully accept you because of your skin color, but certainly NOT all and certainly NOT all in my congregation. I love the diversity and the acceptance of one another in my congregation. My children love it as well and find it hard when they go to an area where there is little diversity.
Show me your source for that.
n case you didn't know, it was David O McKay who first asked the Lord to rescind the ban. That was in the 1950's after he made a trip to South Africa. He was appalled at what he saw there.
What was it that upset him so much? Basically what he saw were white South Africans acting like Mormon Prophets of old. So why was he so upset?
I wouldn't be surprised if one day in the not too distant future a black man will be called to the quorum of the twelve.
Why don't you write your prophet and tell him he needs to institute an "Affirmative Action Revelation" to get some of these "worthy" black men bumped up into the top positions within the LDS corporation ASAP?
Obviously, if you don't put the pressure on God, he might wait another hundred years before you have any Black Apostles.
I'd suggest that with the right kind of pressure, God may just back down and choose a Black man to be the next True Prophet of God. That'll turn Brigham Young over in his grave. That's for sure.
Did you send in your note to the Bishop yet?
Did you take your prozac?
I don’t take it. Are you dodging questions again? Typical. Must be your guilty conscience.
Many of the rants here on FR against Mormon theology fall under the Straw Argument category. Straw arguments are weak but can be cleverly used. For instance, it is clear there are some angry people who hold extreme positions against the Mormon faith. They treat their version as if it were genuinely representative by finding an early version and NEGLECTING the more developed and powerful current version. They isolate part of their argument refusing to use a complete version in a fair and accurate way. Straw arguments are weak, but the unknowing are easily deceived.
It is foolish to answer bated questions meant to form a straw argument. Nevertheless, those who demand an answer seem to become as frenzied when they get one as when they don't. (As if they're looking for an "answer" in the first place.)
Oh yeah, I fogot. You were released from care.
Congratulations.
Have you stopped beating your wives?
You really do have a guilty conscience. Dishonorable acts will do that to a person. You have my sympathy.
Please show your source for this. Your post is full of your own personal opinion which is counter to the facts of the situation. There was pressure put on the church for a time but that pressure had almost completely gone away at the time of the revelation.[sandude]
If you go to this Web site which describes the NM Lobos coming into Provo to play a basketball game during 1977-1978 season, http://www.rivals.com/content.asp?cid=72300 you’ll notice this paragraph: [Marvin] Johnson had only played his second game at the Mariott, but was glad it was the last time before the predominantly Mormon crowd. Johnson said that he and the Lobos’ other black players received more racial remarks at BYU than at any other arena in the WAC. “They yell ‘Nigger!’ and all kinds of racial things,” Johnson said. “And the reporters there ask crazy questions, like, ‘How can black players be disciplined?’ Those fans are wild, man. Like I thought you only heard that kind of stuff down South. But hey, man, I love it. I love to play in a hostile place and win.”
So, frankly, you make it sound, sandude, like this was only external pressure. I mean, “Wow! I didn’t know the Mormon god was so weak that he buckled to scheduling boycotts by Stanford University!” (Stanford had boycotted BYU throughout the 1970s & refused to play BYU in any sport until after the change was made in 1978)
Anyway, what the above paragraph shows is that perhaps it was BYU’s own fan-based racism that perhaps alerted LDS general authorities that it had an internal problem as well as external.
I think when you say there was pressure put on the church for a time that’s in part accurate in that the greatest pressure came circa 1969-1970. Some of the more well-known events occurred involving other athletes from UTEP and Wyoming. (see article at http://uwacadweb.uwyo.edu/robertshistory/fired_by_conscience.htm)
The best article I’ve seen on that era comes from http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/curseofcain_part3.htm [all which follows in italics is from this source] , where it makes mention of the way BYU was greeted afresh come early 1970…Stanford had made its boycott decision Nov. 13, 1969.
The response from BYU according to this article? Ernest L. Wilkinson, President of BYU, was very disturbed with Stanford's action. In a speech delivered at BYU, Dr. Wilkinson stated: During the past year or two, Brigham Young University has received national attention because of protests and boycotts involving our athletic teams . . . President Kenneth Pitzer . . . publicly announced to the nation that Stanford would no longer schedule competition with BYU . . . students from every state in the nation and 56 foreign countries have selected BYU as the university of their choice. "Their color ranges from black to brown to yellow to white. Every race and so-called minority group is represented . . . True, there are not many black students on our campus. Just how many there are I do not know . . ."Their decisions may have been based on their belief that their social life would be curtailed . . . as far as we know there is not a single negro family residing in the entire county in which BYU is located and this we are told by Negroes is an important factor in the decision black students make in not coming to BYU" (Daily Universe, Brigham Young University, December 15, 1969).
Once the media took hold, it was seemingly non-stop:
Unfortunately for the BYU athletes, the situation became worse. On January 6, 1970, the Salt Lake Tribune reported: The president of the Tucson branch of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People has requested permission to hold a protest rally at the University of Arizona before the Arizona-Brigham Young University basketball game Thursday. Three days later the Salt Lake Tribune reported: . . . Brigham Young University . . . lost to Arizona, 90-77, in a game marred by racial protest . . . With 1:40 to play in the first half, nine Negroes, some of them wearing black wristbands, walked out on the basketball floor while the game was in progress. As the Negroes filed onto the court, play stopped and BYU Coach Stan Watts pulled his team from the floor. The blacks were on the court for only a few minutes, however, when police and security officers ushered them away . . .Other student demonstrators broke a window and screamed, "Stop the Game" but that was the extent of the protest (Salt Lake Tribune, January 9, 1970).
According to UTLM.org: Coach Stan Watts was deeply disturbed by the trouble his team encountered. Hack Miller reported: Anyone who thinks that BYU players, being protested against, have no feelings in the fuss are a bit tilted in their thinking, Watts contends. "At Tucson we had heard all day long about protests. We had security people with us. We were told we would be taken to a side entrance so we would not be molested.". . ."One wonders, as we walked into the place, if the building would burn down, or be dynamited."Of course there is concern—on both sides (Deseret News, January 10, 1970).
Mid-January: Just five days later the church's Deseret News carried these statements: TUCSON, ARIZ. (UPI) — Some 3,000 University of Arizona students participated Wednesday in a two-hour rally, demanding that the school sever relations with fellow Western Athletic Conference member Brigham Young University. Speakers at the rally, in front of the university administration building, called for the resignation of President Richard Harvill and demanded that charges be dropped against nine persons arrested at the Arizona-Brigham Young basketball game here a week ago (Deseret News, January, 15, 1970).
Sports Illustrated then got into the act: Much to the LDS Church's embarrassment, Sports Illustrated wrote an article about the protests: Ending a 10-game ordeal on the road, the Cougars last week limped home to Provo, Utah with a 4–10 record, one of the worst starts in Stan Watt's lengthy coaching career. That was depressing enough of course, but the boys from "The Y" . . . were bedeviled by a special problem: a gathering wave of protest against a recently reaffirmed doctrine of the Mormon Church that Negroes be denied admission to priesthood. As much as the Cougars would like to ignore them, the protests have grown in intensity to the point where they have almost transcended all else. "You try not to think about it," said one of the Cougars, "but it does affect your play. Sometimes there are calls—‘Look out, we're going to get you'—and other threats. And there's always tension in the stands." "The thing that worries me and the boys" said Watts . . . "is how far will it go?" Then leaning over and lowering his voice, he added, "One of these days, you know, somebody might pull a gun or some thing.". . . This season's protests have included the wearing of black wristbands by some San Jose State players, the booing of the Y's dancing Cougarettes during the Quaker City Tournament in Philadelphia and the throwing of eggs on the floor at Arizona State. By far the most serious trouble, however, came on January 8, when the Cougars went to Tucson . . . Vandals poured lighter fluid on the gym floor and set it afire . . . All five Arizona starters—three of them black—wore black wristbands . . . the Arizona coach Bruce Larson, is a bishop in the Mormon Church, so, in effect, the Wildcat players and fans were protesting against their own coach . . . (Sports Illustrated, January 26, 1970, pp. 38-39).
It didn’t end on the basketball court, either: On February 1, 1970, the Salt Lake Tribune reported on the demonstration at the BYU/Washington gymnastics meet: SEATTLE (AP) — A garbage-throwing demonstration by about 20 blacks, protesting what one of them said was "racism" practiced by Brigham Young University, delayed the start of the gymnastics meet between Washington and BYU here Saturday afternoon. The blacks walked onto a mat just before the first event and broke eggs and poured oil, catsup and salad dressing onto the mat, officials said . . . After tipping over chalk trays, throwing chairs onto the mat and throwing a pail of water into Hughs' face, the demonstrators departed (Salt Lake Tribune, February 1, 1970).
Wyoming:The Salt Lake Tribune for February 4, 1970, carried this article: LARAMIE, WYO. — The Black Student Alliance of the University of Wyoming said Tuesday it will stage a nonviolent rally Saturday to protest the racial policies of the Mormon Church and Brigham Young University . . . A spokesman for the BSA said: "This rally is necessary in view of the reaffirmation of the racist policies of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
Colorado State: On February 6, 1970, the Salt Lake Tribune reported that at Fort Collins, Colorado, the BYU team met with a violent demonstration: FORT COLLINS, COLO. — The most violent demonstration yet against Brigham Young University by black students protesting the Provo school's allegedly racist policies took place here Thursday night before, during and after the Cougars' 94-71 WAC basketball loss to a hot-shooting Colorado State University . . .The protest of BYU by the blacks was expected to be peaceful, but it quickly turned into something much more as black students scuffled with Colorado State University police before the game began and after it was over. The real violence, however, erupted at halftime when approximately 100-150 black students shuffled out of the stands and walked on the court. The violence occurred as campus police tried to remove the blacks from the floor. During the scuffle, a photographer from the Rocky Mountain News in Denver was struck on the head with a metal object and was taken to a Fort Collins hospital . . .Fighting erupted in one corner of the court and shortly before the two teams were scheduled to come back on the floor to resume the game, an object described as a Molotov Cocktail, huge and flaming, was tossed on the court. It was quickly brushed off the floor by an alert attendant. The game was delayed approximately 30 minutes, but it did not signal the end of the trouble. Police broke up several fights after the game, some in the stands, and some outside the gymnasium . . .Fans kept the players on their toes by tossing eggs onto the court at various times during the game. This required official time-outs, during which attendants were out to clean up the mess. The Cougars, primary objects of the protest, had no better of a time on the basketball floor against the Rams, as they missed almost everything they threw at the hoop (Salt Lake Tribune, February 6, 1970).
Coastal California: The Salt Lake Tribune reported another demonstration against BYU in California: SAN LUIS OBISPO (UPI) — Fifty to 75 demonstrators marched outside a wrestling match between Brigham Young University and Cal Poly Saturday night in protest of the alleged racial policies of the Mormon Church. The group, which carried signs reading, "Stop Mormon Racism," was sponsored by the Black Students Union and the Students for New Action Politics (Salt Lake Tribune, February, 16, 1970).
How did the BYU coaches react all to this? … Tom Hudspeth, head football coach at BYU, was more forthcoming about the matter. He acknowledged that in the past blacks were discouraged from coming to BYU. He noted that one of the "rules" at BYU was that there would be no "inter-racial dating." The following appeared in the Daily Herald, published at Provo, Utah: Springville—The protests and demonstrations which are being launched against BYU are just an easy entrance into other problems Negroes feel they have, Tom Hudspeth, head football coach, told the Springville Chamber of Commerce recently at an early morning breakfast meeting. ". . . We will not change our policies," he declared . . .Coach Hudspeth pointed out that he has a young Negro man on the campus now, and they feel this is the time to bring him into the athletic program. "In the past we felt we should discourage the Negroes because we felt they would not be happy in the social situation here. We have certain rules and regulations which we won't change. They must meet academic standards. We will not allow inter-racial dating. We are only 35 minutes from Salt Lake City where there is a Negro community, and we are setting up appointments and introductions there. "If this doesn't work out, we won't have to hang our heads; it wasn't meant to be" he declared . . ."We felt we could work out something to relieve a little of the pressure. This is the only way we have changed our policy," he said . . .Coach Hudspeth indicated that "a lot of people are mad at me right now because they feel we are giving in. . . . When we played Arizona State, they had to pay an extra $5800 for control. You can't take this out of a tight athletic budget and survive. We are trying to show the other universities that we want to cooperate with them" (Daily Herald, February 16, 1970).
New Mexico: The Salt Lake Tribune reported that another demonstration against BYU took place when the team went to play a game at New Mexico. Eggs and bags of liquid were tossed onto the floor. According to the Salt Lake Tribune the liquid was said to have been kerosene by those clearing the hardwoods. It must have been something fairly strong—it took the sealcoat off the boards and left ugly marks 30 feet long and 10 or 12 feet wide (Salt Lake Tribune, March 1, 1970).
Seattle: The next week students protested at a BYU/University of Washington game: SEATTLE (UPI) — Student protesters ran riot over the University of Washington campus for more than an hour Friday but the crowd that had swelled to 2,500 broke up when word went out that police were on their way. The students were protesting the refusal of the university to sever relations with Brigham Young University immediately. They claimed BYU is a "racist" school (Salt Lake Tribune, March 7, 1970). On March 9, 1970, the Deseret News contained an article about the situation in Washington: SEATTLE (UPI) — The University of Washington announced late Sunday night athletic relations with Brigham Young University would be dropped when present contracts run out in 1972 . . .When informed of this action, President Ernest L. Wilkinson of BYU said the University of Washington had apparently broken its promise to take no action without conferring with BYU. The next day the Deseret News printed another article about the matter: The Black Students Union pressed the administration of the University of Washington for more concessions today, demanding that athletic ties with Brigham Young University be severed immediately . . ."If there is good reason to end the contract in 1972 there is good reason to end it now," a Black student Union spokesman said. Some 3,000 students, led by the BSU, paraded peacefully on the school's campus in Seattle Monday over the issue of alleged racism at BYU. Meanwhile, Dr. Ernest L. Wilkinson, BYU president, said he was "surprised and shocked" at the step taken by the leaders of the University of Washington. And Dr. John Hogness, executive vice president of the latter school, said the step was taken to protect the lives and safety of persons on the university campus. The demonstrations "pose an extremely hazardous and explosive situation," Dr. Hogness said (Deseret News, March 10, 1970).
So which schools were boycotting BYU by 1970? …Administrations of at least five colleges and universities accepted such recommendations and refused to schedule further games with BYU. Among these schools were Stanford University, California State University at Hayward, and the University of Washington . . . The immediate response from BYU officials to the protests was to dismiss them as part of a communist-inspired ploy to undermine the stability of the United States. "These people aren't after us. They're after America," said Coach Watts .
I'm sure that the pressure would have eventually come back and I'm sure that the church leadership was aware of that. In case you didn't know, it was David O McKay who first asked the Lord to rescind the ban. That was in the 1950's after he made a trip to South Africa. He was appalled at what he saw there. Nobody knows exactly why the Lord waited until 1978. [Sandude]
(Yeah, I know what you mean. The Lord seemed to capitulate in 1890 on polygamy when the pressure seemed the greatest…)
Well... you know... after all... he's only human!
Bump for later read.
So you've just reprinted what you originally wrote and added your own definition and that is supposed to be what I understand? I guess there is a first time for everything here. But, if that is what you got from my rewrite, it just shows you don't know how to read. I don't doubt that the book of Mormon was written for everyone. Unlike the God breathed book, the Bible, the book of Mormon contains pronouncements based on skin color that are racial in nature.
I used to think that Romney's tendency to disparage others (as is did Ronald Reagan) in order to make himself look better was just his trick alone. I did not want to ascribe that behavior to an entire religion. But I'm not so sure any more. Perhaps he is just doing what he has been taught? Because I'm seeing other Mormon apologists do the same things.
I also wonder if this almost thick headed tendency to purposely restate things the way you want them to be and to ignore fact is also part of the plan.
Throughout these Romney threads I've seen one trial balloon after another sent out in some vain attempt to find something that will work to deflect the truth.
First you tried to disparage the Bible by saying it discriminates the same way the book of Mormon does. No, there is no discrimination based on people's color in the Bible only in the book of Mormon.
Second you tried to blame it on the Protestants to deflect the error of Joseph Smith and the other Mormon false prophets. Even though you knew full well that only some Protestants were racists and their ideas were not supported by Bible doctrine. That being the case it means the Mormons and their doctrine are allies of the racists and Mormon founders were fully accepting of the racist ideas as a foundation of Mormon doctrine.
Third you tried to say that the racist verses from the book of Mormon had nothing to do with Joseph Smith but were solely the idea of Brigham Young. I don't believe that is just error on your part. I think it was intentional because others have posted where Joseph Smith and others have also held these racist ideas in Mormon Church writings.
There was also an attempt to say this was error from long ago and they have corrected it. Well aren't the passage in 2 Nephi 5:21 and other racist verses still in the book of Mormon? Have they renounced their racist book of Mormon? Have they renounced their racist prophets? Until I see those things happening, I don't believe a single word they say. It does not seem the Mormon church is serious about giving up their old racist habits.
There are various other tactics I've seen employed, but none of them amount to anything.
Finally you took what I wrote and turned it around to what you wanted it to say and then posted it as if I'd said it. That does kind of take the cake, but it is the lamest of all the tricks I've seen tried.
The Mormons can continue to believe in discriminating based on color as they wish. It is more a reflection on their own backwards ideas than anything else. I feel sorry for the blacks who have been deceived and will have to see their lives twisted inside out as Romney brings this on to himself and the Republican party.
God forbid the man ever becomes the nominee. The democrats will have a field day painting every republican an evil racist, and every republican black and female a self hating fool. There is no way I will vote for Romney but the reason has nothing to do with his religion. It is because he has no moral center. I just can't tell if his actions are his own or if the entire Mormon religion is trained to behave the same way.
You noticed that too!
redrock
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