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Rip it (the article) apart guys and girls.
1 posted on 12/17/2007 12:24:50 PM PST by Hazcat
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To: Hazcat

Even a cursory reading of other statements written by the very people who wrote the Constitution would be sufficient to obliterate this article as the absolute drivel that it is.


2 posted on 12/17/2007 12:29:07 PM PST by Bob
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To: Hazcat

—I’ll take this over the NYT anytime—

http://www.largo.org/literary.html


3 posted on 12/17/2007 12:30:14 PM PST by rellimpank (--don't believe anything the MSM tells you about firearms or explosives--NRA Benefactor)
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To: Hazcat

“I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials.”
— George Mason


4 posted on 12/17/2007 12:32:12 PM PST by vikingd00d
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To: Hazcat

The moon, being made of green cheese, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.


5 posted on 12/17/2007 12:34:42 PM PST by coloradan (Failing to protect the liberties of your enemies establishes precedents that will reach to yourself.)
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To: Hazcat
A couple of good links to contemporaneous thinking:

Quotes from the Founders (infowars.com)

Comments after ratification (guncite.com)

7 posted on 12/17/2007 12:37:58 PM PST by Bob
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To: Hazcat

Typical NYT: “Because we’re too stupid to understand it as written, let’s pretend it’s written another way that we can understand.” Bushwa.

TC


8 posted on 12/17/2007 12:38:09 PM PST by Pentagon Leatherneck
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To: Hazcat

Because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state,

Under this reasoning then the next phrase should have been: The right of a “militia” to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

But instead the word “people” was used and for a specific purpose.


9 posted on 12/17/2007 12:38:13 PM PST by WILLIALAL
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To: Hazcat

IBrp.


10 posted on 12/17/2007 12:40:32 PM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Hazcat

OK so by his own argument, in order to protect our ability to form militias, all private individuals have the right to keep and bear arms as they see fit. Good enough.


11 posted on 12/17/2007 12:40:49 PM PST by antinomian (Show me a robber baron and I'll show you a pocket full of senators.)
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To: Hazcat

orwellian doublespeak.

per the NYT the US Constitution is crimethink.


13 posted on 12/17/2007 12:41:10 PM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: Hazcat
The best way to make sense of the Second Amendment is to take away all the commas (which, I know, means that only outlaws will have commas). Without the distracting commas, one can focus on the grammar of the sentence. Professor Lund is correct that the clause about a well-regulated militia is “absolute,” but only in the sense that it is grammatically independent of the main clause, not that it is logically unrelated. To the contrary, absolute clauses typically provide a causal or temporal context for the main clause.

Mayhap I thinketh muchly upon yon verbage, but can say, with utter and complete accuracy, that this is bulleth shitteth.

While "technically correct" in his idiotic assumption, it appears that indeed, the commas are there. (That's the most commas I've used today)

using his rules, this is how I read this statement: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The right of the people shall not be infringed. Militias should be well regulated, but NOT interfere with the rights of the people (whom take precedence over the militia).

The fact is, Americans were afraid of the Engish taking their weapons away (Boston Massacre anyone?) and this particular "Right" was precipitated clearly to prevent a future government from gaining similar powers over the people.

Check out the crazy Third Amendment about "quartering soldiers" in your homes!! Obviously there were mistakes there too! I mean LOOK at all the commas, and what the hell the word "nor" is used?????

Ah, to yearn for the good old days when the elementary school teacher explained, "A comma is little more than a pause to catch your breath"....

sigh
15 posted on 12/17/2007 12:47:17 PM PST by Rick.Donaldson (http://www.transasianaxis.com - Visit for lastest on DPRK/Russia/China/Etc --Fred Thompson for Prez.)
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To: Hazcat
I guess it's to difficult for him to fathom that the way the founders had for protecting militias was to protect the ablility of the individual to keep and bear arms.

I would also challenge the author to cite any founding era idea of "collective" rights. Individuals have RIGHTS. Governments have been given JUST POWERS by individuals.:

WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness - That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happines

19 posted on 12/17/2007 12:54:32 PM PST by ALPAPilot
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To: Hazcat
“Because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.”

That's exactly what the rather awkwardly worded second amendment means. But the right still belongs to the people, not the militia. The right of the people is protected so that a well regulated militia can always be formed. To protect the state, or to overthrow it, as necessary.

21 posted on 12/17/2007 1:03:31 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: Hazcat
“Because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.” In other words, the amendment is really about protecting militias, notwithstanding the originalist arguments to the contrary.

Idiot. It gives "a" reason for NOT infringing upon the right of the people (you and me) to keep and bear arms. The founders knew the difference between a standing army, select militia, the militia and the people. The right is not a privilege of a collective (subset of specially blessed government operatives). No, it is a God-given right which all people share.

Molon Labe.

22 posted on 12/17/2007 1:22:56 PM PST by nonsporting
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To: Hazcat
A well regulated Militia well armed population of men 16 through 60 being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.

Just plugging in what the militia is defined to be, and was at the time the Constitution was written.

23 posted on 12/17/2007 1:45:55 PM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: Hazcat
Here we go again. The definitive analysis of the Second Amendment is a 104 page US Attorney General Opinion of August 24, 2004. Here is its conclusion:

"For the foregoing reasons, we conclude that the Second Amendment secures an individual right to keep and to bear arms. Current case law leaves open and unsettled the question of whose right is secured by the Amendment. Although we do not address the scope of the right, our examination of the original meaning of the Amendment provides extensive reasons to conclude that the Second Amendment secures an individual right, and no persuasive basis for either the collective-right or quasi-collective-right views. The text of the Amendment’s operative clause, setting out a “right of the people to keep and bear Arms,” is clear and is reinforced by the Constitution’s structure. The Amendment’s prefatory clause, properly understood, is fully consistent with this interpretation. The broader history of the Anglo-American right of individuals to have and use arms, from England’s Revolution of 1688-1689 to the ratification of the Second Amendment a hundred years later, leads to the same conclusion. Finally, the first hundred years of interpretations of the Amendment, and especially the commentaries and case law in the pre-Civil War period closest to the Amendment’s ratification, confirm what the text and history of the Second Amendment require."

The basic version of this is:

"The Second Amendment secures a right of individuals generally, not a right of States or a right restricted to persons serving in militias."

This definitive opinion was supported by, among other things, a thorough textual and structural analysis. It very clearly and accurately identifies "A Well Regulated Militia, being Necessary to the Security of a Free State..." as being a prefatory subordinate clause and not Professor Lund's ablative absolute rhetorical device of Latin prose.

Specifically, "A Well Regulated Militia, being Necessary to the Security of a Free State..." is a prefatory declaration to a provision of legal code...the Constitution. As such, it can illuminate the operative language but is ultimately subordinate to it and cannot restrict it. And that operative language is "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Professor Lund should review his opinion with the understanding that the Second Amendment is a provision of legal code written in English, a Germanic language, and not a Latin rhetorical device (an Italic language). The rules are different.

But what do liberals care for rules...or laws?!

24 posted on 12/17/2007 2:05:30 PM PST by DakotaGator
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To: Hazcat

This is one of the things that bother me about the 16th Amendment (the one justifying income tax) people on this website. They say that the 16th Amendment was never properly ratified since it contained different commas in the different approved versions.

If that is true, that also means the 2nd Amendment was not properly ratified. I, for one, don’t want to go there.


30 posted on 12/17/2007 5:12:15 PM PST by jim_trent
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To: Hazcat

“The best way to make sense of the Second Amendment is to take away all the commas. . . .Without the distracting commas, one can focus on the grammar of the sentence.”

Ummm, moron, commas ARE part of the setence’s grammer. They’re there for a reason.

Liberals’ “interpretation” techniques amaze me. They aid words and phrases to clauses and want to omit words, phrase, and grammar from other clauses.


31 posted on 12/17/2007 5:54:33 PM PST by enough_idiocy (www.daypo.net/test-iraq-war.html)
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To: Hazcat
In other words, the amendment is really about protecting militias, notwithstanding the originalist arguments to the contrary

That is absolutele nonsense. Congress has the power to call forth and govern any State's militia, as well as set the rules for training. That, folks, is supreme authority.

What is to stop Congress from calling forth the Illinois NG, for example, into the service of the United States, and then shipping them all to a base in Alaska?

How would the Second Amendment stop that?

_____________________________________

Here is the enumerated power of Congress in the matter:

I.8.15. To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

I.8.16. To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

35 posted on 12/17/2007 7:21:21 PM PST by Ken H
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To: Hazcat

“To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.”

“What is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials.”
~George Mason, 1788

“The said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms.” ~Samuel Adams, 1788

“The militia is our ultimate safety. We can have no security without it. The great object is that every man be armed.”
~Patrick Henry

“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.” ~Thomas Jefferson, 1776

“Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe.”
~Noah Webster, 1787


36 posted on 12/17/2007 7:31:23 PM PST by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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